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| Author | Topic: chapter 4 |
| Pastor |
posted 3/17/09 3:12 AM
# 3 Apple trees bear apples, wheat stalk produce wheat, and forgiven people forgive people. Grace is the natural outgrowth of grace. Would you call yourself a forgiving person? How has God shown you grace lately? How have you shown the same grace to others? I find this to be a difficult question for a number of reasons. There is a difference between cheap grace and grace. Cheap grace requires no response of the heart. There is not gratitude- like the parable Max uses of the servant who's debt is forgiven but cannot forgive another's debt. I find my self struggling in those ways. While I think I can be grace-filled, many times patiently waiting for someone to see things differently, I have to admit I do little other than wait to bring about any reconciliation. Over the years I seem to become less and less confrontational, even in concilitory ways. Do we have any stories of reconciliation? Do we practice grace in hopes of people seeing it in retrospect? What do you think? |
| no name |
posted 3/18/09 3:32 PM
I have seen the lack of forgivness up close. It is not a good thing no matter what side you are on. When we do not forgive we carry around excess trouble on our backs.When we are not forgiven we also can be troubled and it may can cause us undo stress. Take for example a group within the church that is to meet and discuss items for and about the church. If one person is harboring feelings of resentment for others in the group it does not allow them to fully function in the way they should.Just like family we need to forgive and forget the past actions and move forward as a whole group. |
| Pastor |
posted 3/21/09 7:55 PM
We do have groups that function poorly because of resentments, but there is usually a bit more to it. And forgiveness is an important part of accepting a situation, but there is more to it. In the church we talk about "cheap grace." This is forgiveness without confession, without change of heart or circumstances. Many people mistake grace for approval (something that Lucado also talks about.) Lucado uses the example of the parable of the unforgiving servant (Matthew 18:35). We have to be careful that our "forgiveness" does not become inaction to allow injustice, mismanagement, or to lose the precious gift that we have. I think the more difficult part is being able to confront in love instead of anger. To accept our faults and mistakes, and be patient with others- however, if someone does not believe they have done anything wrong, how can there be forgiveness? Also- thanks for the comment, because I think this is a very worthwhile conversation. |
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Karen (Moderator) |
posted 3/22/09 10:17 AM
Since forgiveness is more for us than the person we are forgiving, I think we can forgive the person even though they aren't aware they needed to be forgiven. The fact that they didn't catch on that they did something wrong could be part of what we forgive them for. |
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Karen (Moderator) |
posted 3/22/09 10:49 AM
If we are counting on God's grace, does that make it "cheap grace," or is it only if we don't have a change of heart or express/feel no gratitude that it becomes "cheap grace"? Say, for example, you are doing something that you know you shouldn't do, and you feel bad about it, but you go ahead and do it anyway. Is that cheap grace or "regular" grace since I am counting on receiving it? I count on being saved by grace, and I try not to make that be my ticket to do whatever I want to do. But, sometimes when I sin, I'm aware that I am sinning, but I don't stop myself. Does my awareness of what I'm doing and not stopping myself, turn it into cheap grace? Or, is it only cheap grace when it doesn't change me or affect me and I take it for granted that I will be forgiven through God's grace without doing anything since we know grace can't be earned? Have I gone in enough circles here to make my question clear or confusing? I don't want to count on cheap grace, but I wonder if my confidence in God's grace sometimes turns it into cheap grace because I know I can count on it. (After all this, you'll think I'm a criminal or something.) |
| Pastor |
posted 3/23/09 8:01 PM
Soren Kierkegaard said that cheap grace was "Admiring Christ instead of following Christ." Consider these circumstances which I would describe as "Cheap Grace": A man comes home and finds that his wife is obviously upset with him. It could be because he has been saying bad things about her behind her back, it could be because he hasn't done some chores that he promised to do, it could be that she found out he blew a couple hundred dollars when he went out with the boys a few nights ago. He sees her upset and says "I don't know why you are upset, but it probably is my fault. So whatever it is...I'm sorry." If she says "Well, I guess I have to forgive you"... CHEAP GRACE A man stands up in church and admits he is a pedophile. He prays for God's and the church's forgiveness. Because he is forgiven he wants to volunteer in the nusery. The church says "Gee, if we don't let him, than we didn't really forgive him, so we have to let him volunteer" CHEAP GRACE The woman who is raped says she is not filing a report with the police because she wants to be forgiving - CHEAP GRACE Why is this cheap? Because in grace something changes. In real grace we remember that it is free to us because Jesus paid the price for us. But to often we feel like because it is free to us that it was easy and we don't have to make a big deal of it. Think of each of these situations: The woman carries the burden of the behavior of her husband but he shows no appreciation. The church quickly forgives but some victom down the road may carry the price, the rape victom is okay with it, but how about the next victom when it could have been prevented. It is a function of the heart that is significant. I confess sins, and then I find myself doing them again. I sincerely wish to stop. When I confess it I am sincere, but I also am weak, I also am vulnerable, I am human. The cheapness is when we dicide that it is an easy transaction. "Jesus doesn't mind dying on a cross." or "Well, that was easy for him." If we are sincere about wanting forgiveness or being forgiving we would do something about the situation. The husband, the pedophile, the rapist all are content letting someone suffer for them. That is what makes it cheap. And for those of us watching, it becomes cheap because we say "oh let's just let Jesus pay for it, I am not going to get involved and try to help ...." the husband, the pedophile, the rapist. We do not pick up the cross. We admire what Jesus is doing, but we are not going to follow that path. Cheap. When we do something wrong and we know it, it may be that we are weak, or vulnerable or being human. But if we accept the behavior and say it is just fine because Jesus loves to forgive, it becomes cheap. |
| Tom |
posted 3/24/09 1:33 AM
I have been reading the board and trying to decide to comment or not. I understand the Cheap Grace as forgiving but not changing. Maybe not even being sorry for what one has done. But how do we address the ones that have done things that hurt the church but they do not see it or even believe they are doing what is right? These are the ones that I feel we need to pray for and try to forgive them for what they have done without knowing the harm their actions have caused. How do we offer true Grace to them and really mean it? Sometimes it is easier to forgive a stranger then a friend or family member. We need to start making changes to some of the old ways we have operated and find the true mission of our church. If we want to grow or even survive we need to make some changes. For anyone reading this I ask when was the last time you shared your faith with someone other then a family member? We all must learn to not be shy talking about God. |
| no name |
posted 3/24/09 1:47 AM
you are right when you say it is hard to forgive. To forgive someone you must be able to so on your own. Others may see only the tip of the problem and not the whole problem. People can do very hurtfull things and not even know they have done so. Some however willing do hurtfull things for their own personel reasons. Being part of a Church Family is not about being right or first or even being the leader. No, being part of the family is working together to bring people closer to God. This requires putting personel adgends aside and doing the work of the Church even if you do not like every task that has to be done. Being the one with all the answers does not make you closer to God. |
| Pastor |
posted 3/25/09 2:26 AM
Certainly something to think about, and I believe we will have more on this subject when we hit one of the later chapters -the subject of leadership, or unworthy leadership. |
| Deb |
posted 3/30/09 4:51 PM
Forgiveness, I need to look up where, but it says in the Bible that we are to forgive 70x7 (keep on forgiving). Also, I believe it says, that if we do NOT forgive, God may not listen to our prayers. Unforgiveness also may lead to bitterness, estrangement, broken relationships. I believe that we need to make an attempt for others to forgive us where ever possible. If we are not able to make things right directly with the others, We are still to do so as it affects our relationship with God himself. I got a Lot of flack from someone after 9-11. I said I forgave the terrorists, and others couldn't understand. Where I did not have any family hurt, my life was changed dramatically since then. I learned before that, I had to let go of some feelings I was holding onto and harboring towards a loved one, since my youth and forgave the other, it improved the way I could interact with them. The hardest was forgiving myself for the unforgiveness and bitterness for so long that affected this relationship and time wasted. Forgiving myself, when I fall is still the hardest part for me in forgiveness. |
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