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| Author | Topic: Which type of mellophone is closest to french horn sound (for trumpet doubler)? |
| Trumpet Doubler |
posted 4/21/09 7:05 AM
Hello, this mellophone website has been a great resource, and I have enjoyed reading through all the information, particularly that regarding the more unusual variants of the instrument! What sparked my interest in the mellophone is probably different from most here, but here it is: I am a home recording enthusiast, who plays the trumpet moderately well, who is looking into being able to record fuller brass sections. Hence I'm trying to find other instruments that I can play that utilize the same trumpet fingerings and mouthpiece. When it comes to the mellophone though, there seems to be a plethora of variants to the instrument that leaves me in need of advice as to which might suit my purposes best? My goal is to get as close to a classical/symphonic french horn sound as possible. While I would love to simply learn to play the horn itself, I keep bumping into that darned 24 hour in a day limitation.. ;) Ideally it would be in F so as to be able to read standard horn parts, but I can transpose if necessary. I've been toying of playing whichever mellophone I settle on with a Curry TF mouthpiece, but I'm open to suggestions here as well. Thanks in advance, and thanks for providing this wonderful resource, JohnA, the TrumpetDoubler |
| Greg |
posted 4/25/09 8:34 PM
Welcome, John! First off, a mellophone won't produce the type of resonance you get on a French Horn because it's a half-length instrument. The very thing that gives the Horn its distinctive sound is the fact that it's a double-length instrument. Certain big-belled mellos will be able to produce a rich sound in the low register, but these are the European Eb rotary-valve althorns (aka old horns, rotary mellophones, alto horns) with an 11" -12" bell. There's also the Courtois Eb tenor cor, which appears on eBay from time to time. Coincidentally, I'm in the very situation you mention, recording-wise. Not for the same reason, but because I'm a multi-brass player doing the home-recording thing. I'm used to analogue recording, and am just learning to go digital, so in some respects I'm a beginner all over again when it comes to recording. As far as the upper-middle voice goes, I use a variety of mellos and don't try to emulate the French Horn. If I specifically want a Horn sound, I use a Horn. I have a cheap-but-surprisingly-good Raison brass Perinet-valve Bb French Horn and changed the receiver to accept a mello mouthpiece. Heh- don't want the Horn to wreck my mello embouchure. Just kidding- I was after a particular sound that includes not putting one's hand in the bell. |
| Trumpet Doubler |
posted 5/2/09 6:03 PM
Hi Greg, thanks for the welcome and thanks for responding! I do understand your point about the difference in tubing and the effect this will have on the sound - but I'm curious, how close will the sound get? A great deal of the marketing literature (particularly the older ones) advertise the mellophones as optional horn replacements which is what got my curiosity up. I recently picked up one of these on ebay (waiting for it to arrive): http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn6Edraw1924image.html Now, I'm not entirely sure of the model, it could also be a 4E, 8E (based on the loyalist page), or everyone's favourite - unidentified mystery horn! I'll find out soon - bought it kind of blind simply because it looked to be in great condition, and was so inexpensive. The instrument collector in me won out. Hopefully I'll be able to make use of it too, heh. Regarding some of the european style alto horns, I saw the info on them on Al's horn page - they do indeed sound promising, the only trouble being that they also seem to be quite rare.. my online searches turned up nothing on these. I will keep an eye out for the Courtois, thanks for the tip! This brings up another bit of curiosity - what about those bell front instruments they call 'marching french horns' rather than mellophones? Or these in fact closer to the horn, or is it a misnomer? Final point of curiosity.. what size is the shank on a regular french horn? Any chance it might be similar to that of a cornet? At this point a thousand horn players the world over have involuntarily shivered at the mention of such an abomination - but from my humble perspective, it seems that with a classic style deep v cup, a cornet mouthpiece (seeing as the cornet is conical like the horn, and unlike the trumpet) might allow me to get closer to the genuine sound. Learning the fingerings isn't too much of a task, even with my limited hobbyist time - though the tuning issues, and technique of hand in the bell remain concerns. Ultimately, I am under no illusions that I can sound exactly like a skilled horn player without actually learning to play the instrument properly - but for my purposes, if I can get 70-80% (90 is nice too of course, heh) of the way there, I will be very pleased indeed! Regarding the home recording - the difference between analog and digital can indeed be startling to those who were used to the former. So similar, yet so different. There is always the danger of 'digital clipping', especially when recording brass instruments which tend to be loud. Take the level too far down, and the noise floor becomes a problem.. I've heard many people recommend keeping a light limiter on the input signal to avoid running out of headroom. Personally I haven't tried this yet, and am leery of applying compression at such an early stage.. especially for the style and sound I seek to achieve, but I can certainly see the wisdom of this course of action. Its a great safety for live situations where one take is all there is, no room for error! I'm currently working on fitting out a sound proofed and treated little studio in my basement - at last, a recording space that will pose less challenges.. and as a bonus, a practice room! I might just get to put more time into my trumpet, and growing collection of other brass instruments without irritating everyone around me, heh. Thanks again for your input Greg, you've given me food for thought about different horns to look out for. JohnA the TrumpetDoubler |
| Greg |
posted 5/3/09 6:13 PM
Marching French Horns are indeed what they say they are. They come in F and Bb, and some F models come with an Eb crook (or at least, they used to). The French Horn mouthpiece isn't a stretch if you're a trumpet player. It's the embouchure that's the kicker. To make the Horn perform properly, you've got to play all top lip. I got around this by buying a cheap Perinet-valve Raison Brass Bb French Horn and changing the Horn mouthpiece reciever for a cornet/mello size receiver. The French Horn receiver is smaller than a cornet receiver, believe it or not. I use a very deep, conical mello mouthpiece in my Horn, and the Perinet valves allow me to play right-handed. That said, I wasn't after a Horn sound. More of an 18th century Horn sound- no hand in bell, very loud. Still, I can get a pretty good Horn sound in all registers. People who advertise mellos as being a French Horn alternative or substitute are speaking in marching band terms, which means they aren't exactly looking for the classical Horn sound. The modern marching horns are geared this way and especially have the Horn player in mind. You might want to check out the new Jupiter (the Quantum?), which gives pretty good bang for the buck. Al and the guys could probably tell you more in this department. Yeah, as far as recording goes, analogue is about saturation, which means habitually going into the red to produce a sound that's good and hot. I'm finding digital very wimpy by comparison. I don't like using a limiter, and EQ is something I use only if needed during mixdown. I don't like the final mix sounding treated, and that's very hard to avoid with digital. |
| Al |
posted 5/3/09 8:14 PM
Tune into Episode 86 of The MelloCast. We talked a little about your question. |
| Kaiser |
posted 5/18/10 6:15 AM
Hi, Enjoyed your Mellocast 86 with answer to this question. Except for the tuning and the original mouthpiece, I'm quite happy with the somewhat French-horn-sounding handmade circular horn that I play. It is a German-made "Kaiser" [bell inscription: "Original Handwerk" "Meister Franz Kaiser"] with rotary valves. I think the original mouthpiece is similar to a parforce (natural--no valve) horn that some European 'show-bands' use that have Eb double-length tuning, and a fairly large lead-pipe, but the sound is more 'blary' (not like a real German valveless 'Waldhorn'). In order to get the French horn approximation, I had to go to what the Mellocast called a "cavernous" mouthpiece. I'm using a Besson 15 tenor horn mouthpiece. (It also has a wider shank for the larger lead-pipe.) So far, I'm quite happy with it. How does this one compare to the Wick 2 or the Blessing 5 that were mentioned in the Mellocast? |
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