Author	Topic:   Javier, uneducated with a very large and Danerous Mouth.
The_Great_Democracy	posted 5/14/04 5:08 PM     Javier, I have read some of your highly amusing articles and i have come to the conclusion you understand very very little about British society or historical foreign policy.Although inexcusable that any person's civil liberties be robbed of them we can not forget such actions in the context of Northern Ireland were carried out with the purpose of protection of civilian life against the murderous tyranny of the IRA.We can debate the rights of Republican Ireland to control Northern Ireland, all day, but it would solve very little, and seeing as you have very little knowledge of the matter I will provide a quick summary;1) Most republican Irish do not want to see Northern Ireland be part of the Irish republic.2) The overwhelming majority of Protestants in Northern Ireland wish to retain British Sovereignty.3) The IRA thus do not represent the wishes of the majority of the people and their murderous raids against the Civilians of Northern Ireland, are crimes against humanity themselves. (Yet nonetheless excusable crimes should be committed as a deterrent or prevention)Now we have finished discussing Northern Ireland, I will move onto your point about so called "British Brutality";I would be deluding myself if I did not accept the past crimes committed by the British Empire which are far more than I could ever list in this Essay.However, it must be remembered very few countries are free from such blood stained hands and one might argue that if Britain is accountable for these crimes committed over 100 years ago, then Germans are still responsible for the World War One, and the Horror of World War Two, and France responsible for the unimaginable evil of the European Union. (last bit is a joke)Instead of Justify the unjustifiable I will instead remind Javier of French crimes committed against Vietnamese and more startlingly French Crimes currently being committed in their unofficial North African Empire. And of course, let us not forget French Testing of Nuclear Weapons in the French Polynesian, not only a crime against inhabitants but nature itself.Britain however, unlike the other nations of Europe used it empire for good.Britain’s superior dominance during the 1800s allowed it to become the first nation to outlaw slavery, and then used its international influence to get all other nations of the world to follow suit. (This is fact, and I will not list the areas where such pressure was enforced, as it will be a considerably large and boring essay, but I will be happy to produce evidence if I am challenged on this issue)Winston Churchill of course was a man of few principles when it came to empire, yet it is important not to measure him to modern politicians of the day, as he came from a different era and despite his faults did save Europe, arguably on more than one occasion.I will write no more, as I expect a prompt reply and I will move onto Noelia’s comments on British Madness.
Noelia (Moderator)	posted 5/15/04 7:07 AM       Since I defend freedom not hipocrately, I won't oblige anyone to give away his/her name if they dont want to. So for the rules themselves, you can be an unknown poster. But, by saying who you are, you are showing everybody you really support what you are saying. Move to my comments about british madness, I would like to exchange opinions about this topic with you.Regards, Noelia http://espanglishfriends.tripod,com http;//www.geocities.com/nxz1978
Gabriel Marchevsky	posted 5/15/04 6:28 PM     To"The_Great_Democracy " whoever you are,What's your point? Are you trying to educate us on the benefits of being raped by London over the same fate at the hands of Paris?You are missing the point altogether. Maybe a minority of Irish citizens would greatly benefit from an invasion by Japan, however, this does not give the Japanese any rights to invade Ireland. Britain does not belong in Ireland any more than Japan does.Ireland belongs to the Irish, period.Gabriel
The_Great_Democracy	posted 5/16/04 1:26 AM     "Ireland belongs to the Irish" but yet whom are the "Northern Irish"? do they not have the same civil liberties possed by any other people to choose their sovereign?If we assume they do not have the right to choose their government then one could also argue those nations of North and South America have a very illigimate existence. The British presence in Northern Ireland, past and present is excusable by one fact; 1) Northern Ireland has held a referendum which let the popular vote decide that British sovereignty should be retained. Northern Ireland has its own assembly to deal with domestic issues and is makes up part of a thriving democracy. The path of the IRA over recent years has been largely of cooperation, but splinter groups have deliberately set about to sabotage the peace process in this region. If we were to conclude that Ireland should be unified irrespective of the will of the people, then we could also unify Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador under the protests of dissident Inca insurgents, who if they existed would demand re-unification of the Old Inca State? Or possibly a minority group of Argentineans aspiring to see Ecuador, Bolivia and Northern Chile rejoin the Colonial Audiencia of Characas, created by Colonial Spain. If we concede such protests be fully legitimate despite unrepresentative and tyrannical demands, then the very fabric of our democracy based upon majority rule comes into question and we disregard all for what we have fought and died for.
Gabriel Marchevsky	posted 5/16/04 1:17 PM     Big difference: by large, the Native Americans have not been victims of apartheid in modern Latin America. We did not create borders to separate religions. To divide a country and only respect the wishes of those who agree with us may be what the British have fought and died for, but is certainly not what our heroes San Martin and Bolivar fought for. I suppose you have to be American to understand this difference.Gabriel
The_Great_Democracy	posted 5/16/04 3:04 PM     Gabriel, I like you. You have an uncanny skill to avoid the significant points of a person’s essay and in reply merely state empty rhetoric, which is largely false. Did Britain create the social divide in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants? There has never been apartheid in Northern Ireland, and Catholics and Protestants are free to live in any areas they wish. In reality Protestant groups within Ireland settled here from Scotland privately without Government sponsorship and have been there longer than the Spanish and Portuguese in Latin America. If the Creole descendants of the Spanish settlers as well as indigenous peoples share democratic elections in South America (as we are lead to believe) then can we also assume the Protests in Northern Ireland have an equal right to share this Liberty with their Catholic brethren? Is this not democracy? If Latin American’s have the right to elect a government and choose their sovereignty then so too do the Northern Irish…//I now move onto your other point of “Native Americans have not been victims of apartheid in modern Latin America”. Which social history book do you read from my friend, for I am starting to believe it is entitled ‘The Big Book of Bull.’? Indigenous Americans have experienced great apartheid in modern Latin America sometimes even enforced by government legislature. Native Peruvian’s of the Andes have been kept out of the electoral process through the government introduction of literacy tests before a person is eligible to vote. This is significant given the vast majority of Andean peoples speak Quechua and possibly only a few words of Spanish. What is more significant is this populous group of indigenous peoples makes up little over 50% of the population, making them a serious threat to the political system of Peru if they were to decide to use their democratic vote. There is a similar story to indigenous peoples in Bolivia and Ecuador, often not given citizenship. As a result they are incapable of fulfilling their tribal practices of nomadic movements between the various Latin American boarders. Yet not only do you ignore such apartheid treatment towards your Indigenous citizens of South America you also claim “To divide a country and only respect the wishes of those who agree with us…is certainly not what our heroes San Martin and Bolivar fought for.” Yet whom created such boarders? Was it not Bolivar and San Martin themselves? And in their struggles for colonial independence whom did they consult? Did they respect the Wishes of all South American peoples and hold democratic referendums to decide what was the popular voice of the people or did they listen to a minority group of influential traders eager for South American independence to end trade restrictions enforced by the Spanish Crown? Shall we not forget that San Martin attempted to cause internal revolution in Peru (1814), only to face failure as it was against the wishes of the General population? One could assume he was respecting the “wishes of those who agree with us” but yet ignored the wishes of Those Whom Didn’t. And how did Bolivar succeed in the emancipation of Peru? Did he realize San Martin’s democratic error and hold elections? Or did he merely overthrow an established regime, and through promises of positions of hierarchical authority in government buy the support of the leading aristocracy, against the loyalist sympathies of the Peruvian people? Is this the democracy your heroes fight for? I promise you, I do not “have to be American to understand this difference”, as liberty translates into any language. However, it may be necessary to have a basic knowledge of Latin American history to argue this subject…which is sadly one I do not believe you posses.
Gabriel Marchevsky	posted 5/17/04 1:31 AM     Thanks for liking me. My big book of bull.. does not talk about president Toledo's race, you are right. His blonde hair and blue eyes tell the real story. Thanks for the illuminating lesson. Now I know you have the truth. My face is red. I can't believe I have been so blind!Of course there is nothing wrong with Ireland! The fact that by large the Irish helped the Nazis in WWII probably have more to do with my stupidity that with your 400 years of screwing them. Thank you good citizen. You are my new hero. I see the light now.Cheers,Gabriel
Ernie Spencer	posted 5/17/04 1:43 PM       Gabriel,You are rather misinformed. It is just one of those urban myths that Ireland helped the Nazis in WWII. (I believe they were also bombed by the Luftwaffe) Maybe a minority e.g. IRA sympathisers may have done but remember that the IRA in the 20's lost the Civil War in Ireland to the Soldiers of Destiny.Many tens of thousands of Southern Irish joined the British Army voluntarily and fought the Nazis. Many died for their beliefs, dont insult their memory please.The Southern Irish, in addition to their EU rights also have full citizenship rights in the UK also.Please look at the facts not the myths of the extremists. The British and the Irish are on the whole are the best of friends. Thankfully the extremists on both sides are in a very small minority. One of the biggest celebrations in Greater Manchester, where I live, is St. Patricks day with its parade and attendant celebrations.Personally I prefer to stick to the facts and actuality, they are so much more enlightening and informative thsn the propaganda you have obviously been subject to..Regards,Ernie http://www.history.horizon.co.fk/articles/murders.html Thomas Helsby's Account of the Murders at Port Louis.
Gabriel Marchevsky	posted 5/17/04 3:08 PM     Hi Ernie,The Irish fought on both sides in many wars. This is a fact, not an insult.I have an Irish neighbour. The first words out of his mouth on the day we met were: "We have a common enemy". I did not say that, nor I imagined it. I doubt he was brainwashed with propaganda.In any case, this trend is a waste of time. It was started by an individual who does not have the decency to sign with his name, and intended only as an insult to Javier.Javier was smart enough to stay out of it. I must learn to do the same.Regards,Gabriel
The_Great_Democracy	posted 5/17/04 5:30 PM     Gabriel, i have silenced all your arguements using historical and political analysis of events. You would show strength of character if you did not ignore the bashing i have delt to your political ideals and instead admitted your words were unplanned and irrespective of historical events. I Really do not see what relevance my name has to my political beliefs, but if you must know; my name is Robert. I nonetheless plan to continue using the alias "The_Great_Democracy".
Noelia (Moderator)	posted 5/17/04 8:10 PM       The Great Democracy: We come from countries that are ruled by democracy, and we cannot see a better way of ruling a country. This is what we have been taught is fair. But it doesnt mean we are owners of the truth. Democracy simply doesnt work well in other countries and you have to learn to respect that, even when you think the UK and the US are the "batman and robin" of the planet and have to mess with everything that YOU THINK it's not correct. At least, respect the United Nations, otherwise it seems to the rest of us that the United Nations have the power to punish some countries, but not some others. The US should apologize for what they did in Irak, take the troops back (so the UK and the rest of the countries there) and leave the irakies organize themselves. Everybody demands us for an apology for what happened in 1982 but it seems nobody wants to give us apologies for stealing our lands or put the world in such a big danger by attacking Irak. So, Argentina is going to follow the example of the Masters of the universe and seriously talk about this when the rest seriously talks about everything else....I am getting really mad at the idea of countires demanding us stuff while they do whatever they want...Regards, Noelia http://espanglishfriends.tripod,com http;//www.geocities.com/nxz1978
The_Great_Democracy	posted 5/17/04 9:20 PM     Noeila: I respect your opinion concerning Iraq, but in this post I have been trying to defend the position of a British presence in Northern Ireland. I do look forward to challenging you on the Iraqi issue in the future. I will end by summing up my argument; 1) The Northern Irish have chosen British sovereignty through the ballet box. 2) The Protestant Northern Irish have been in Northern Ireland longer than the Spanish and Portuguese in Latin America. 3) If we are to assume that Latin Americans have the right to exist and democratically choose their sovereign then so too do the Northern Irish. (If you would like an interesting insight into the issue I suggest you read all of my posts concerning this area.)
Gabriel Marchevsky	posted 5/17/04 10:12 PM     You are defeating your own argument. It doesn't matter for how long the Portuguese or the Spanish have been in Latin America. They do not vote there any more, and they did not create a division of the continent to justify their presence there today. They are gone.We do not recognize their rules and laws in our house. The "apartheid" you are referring to in modern Latin America is not caused by Portugal or by Spain, or by any Latin American government. Latin America does not recognize borders between the minority of Native Americans that choose to live in the past and continue to defy Spain and/or Portugal two centuries after they left.These individuals are not happy with reality and they wrongly believe that by refusing to recognize the present situation as it is, the continent will be returned to them some day.Peru does not discriminate against them. As a matter of fact, president Toledo's race is mostly Native American, and Peru had a president of Japanese ancestry not too long ago. So much for Spanish rule and Peruvian discrimination. Nicaragua voted for a woman and Argentina for a Syrian descendant twice, and a British one presently. How common is this in the English speaking world? How many Hispanics were US presidents?,and when was the last time there were orientals in the British parliament?And about the ballot box you mention, Native Americans are not excluded from it, unlike the majority of Irish people. Your infantile reasoning only works for your internal comsumption.
The_Great_Democracy	posted 5/17/04 11:22 PM     Gabriel im sorry, but you are wrong, and what is worse is you are fabricating and twisting things to appear not as they seem. Indigenous Americans are not held down so abruptly as they were in previous decades, but an appartheid between the two peoples nonetheless exists, most noteably in Peru where the population number over 50%. The President is of mostly Indigenous blood?...surely this is insignificant to the subject area of Ireland, where both Catholics and Protests share in positions of elected authority in the Northern Ireland Assembley. Your insight into the relationship between Creolle and Mestizo descandants of Spanish and Portuguese settlers does not impress me either. If these people have been there as long as the Irish in Ireland, have killed raped pillaged on an undenyable scale, and yet retain the right to live in the area while claiming representation from a government of their selection then surely the Northern Irish share this very same liberty. It is this point you seem to ignore in your quest for Catholic supremacy. And you ask me where are the Chinese in British government? Well this is a little irrelevant seeing as we are discussing Northern Ireland, and not comparing skin complexions. However, the British house of commons has a large proportion of British MPs from all backgrounds, even my Local MP is of Jamaican origins, but as this has no relevance to Northern Ireland and you are merely trying to change subject I will ignore this point altogether.
Gabriel Marchevsky	posted 5/17/04 11:57 PM     You wrote:"1. If these people have been there as long as the Irish in Ireland, have killed raped pillaged on an undenyable scale, and yet retain the right to live in the area while claiming representation from a government of their selection then surely the Northern Irish share this very same liberty."The Inca empire succumbed under Spanish rule, not Peruvian. Modern Northern Ireland is under British rule, hardly an independent country. Peru is not part of Spain. Am I twisting this? Ireland should be one country, not two.All Peruvians share the same country and vote on the same elections. Those who choose not to do so are not excluded by Peru nor supported by Spain.2. "It is this point you seem to ignore in your quest for Catholic supremacy."This is exactly why you support what's happening in Ireland. Do not include me in your holy war. I am not Catholic.Gabriel
Noelia (Moderator)	posted 5/18/04 3:54 AM       People, let's not get confused. Religions, at least the 3 main religions: (Jewish, Catholic, Islamic)do not want any war. People who fight or start a fight in the name of any religion are only troublemakers who use people's beliefs, misread them and justify their wars with that. The 3 religions themselves support understanding and peace among all cultures, and what evil people do with them is not necessarily truth. I am not a very religious person, but I wanted to make this clear in order not to start a religious war here. There are always good and bad people in any group, religious or ethnical. Regards Noelia http://espanglishfriends.tripod,com http;//www.geocities.com/nxz1978
Ernie Spencer	posted 5/18/04 1:30 PM       Gabriel,You once again show your lack of depth of knowledge of the Irish/British relationship which is admittedly full of contradictions and anomalies.I reiterate that the relationship on the whole is a good one. Yes of course, like your neighbour, there are people who are totally opposed to the British, but on the other hand there are many more whom I believe are in the majority who have no animosity towards the British at all and apparently unlike yourself do not wish to perpetuate past wrongs on both sides. There are many (probably hundreds of thousands) Irish of both religions who have made their home in England and live and work among us peacefully and productively and take a full part in commerce and politics. Probably about a third of my immediate neighbours are of Irish origin. Local Councils in England have many many councillors of Irish origin for instance. In addition to contradict you again there are elected Irish people in our Parliament as well as people from the Caribbean, Guyana, India, Pakistan etc. including some who hold ministerial positions.Many of the top people in Parliament are also born in Scotland, including I believe our Prime Minister and Chancellor. Hey where are the English??To Noelia, religions do have a great influence on politics and democracy and it is probably not a coincidence that that most Muslim countries are not democracies, maybe because of their authoritarian stance. Perhaps just like their counterpart Catholics, also authoritarian, in South America in the first half or so of the last century. Perhaps the move to democracy in South America with the decline of church authority gives us hope for democracy in future in Muslim countries.Regards,Ernie http://www.history.horizon.co.fk/articles/murders.html Thomas Helsby's Account of the Murders at Port Louis.
Gabriel Marchevsky	posted 5/18/04 3:03 PM     Ernie,We are talking about two different things. The fact that people from different groups live and work in other places has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing. Many Spaniards went to Argentina, made a home there and participated in everything. This does not prove that Spain did not commit atrocities in Latin America in the past, nor gives Spain right to claim any American territories today.There were many hard working and decent Japanese people living peacefully in Hawaii on Dec 7th 1941. If I had said on Dec 8th that Japan does not belong there, someone from Japan would have told me that: "You once again show your lack of depth of knowledge of the USA/Japan relationship which is admittedly full of contradictions and anomalies." Apples and oranges.Gabriel
Noelia (Moderator)	posted 5/18/04 5:33 PM       Ernie, you, just as "the great democracy" believe democracy is the only and best way to rule a country. This is a very selfish thinking, because the fact that democracies work in the UK and other countries doesnt mean we're owners of the truth and we are the correct ones and the others are mistaken. If you keep thinking that way, the wars your country participates in will be always stupidly justified. Democracy is very good, but here in Argentina, democracy made us poorer than before. I am not saying I would like a dictator here, but maybe there is another way. The figure of "dictator" is always related to evilness and it doesnt have to be like that. Fidel Castro in Cuba, for example, he's making lots of mistakes, I admit,like not allowing people to leave the country if they want to. That is wrong, I accept that. But on the other hand, I can assure you nobody cares about Cuba more than him. And you cannot say the same about Blair, Kirchner or Bush. They are so very interested in politics that they forget about the country and the people. And that is dangerous. Even more when they rule countries with such powerful weapons. About the religions, I agree with you, they are closely related to governments. But you must understand, that religions have been corrupted already. If you read the Bible or any other religious book, you'll see the messages of peace are everywhere. The real purpose of religions was friendship and understanding. Of course, there are always people with the ability to confuse other people and make them understand things that were not supposed to be understood that way. Bin Laden, Hitler and Bush are good examples of these people that must be stopped. Noelia http://espanglishfriends.tripod,com http;//www.geocities.com/nxz1978
The_Great_Democracy	posted 5/18/04 5:38 PM     Gabriel, it seems to me you know better than the Northern Irish themselves. They choose for British Rule, yet you say they want to be independenant. If you believe in democracy then you believe in peoples right to choose their government. Most British would be more than happy to give Northern Ireland independence, and sell it down the River. This is not part of a World Wide British empire, tyranical and evil...this is simple democracy, Something lost on you. Your arguements are based assumption and have very little knoweledge of the actual situation as a whole. I've related the Northern Ireland situation to that of South America so you could understand, but despite that you still went on the war path fighting to Northern Irish libertation. I Will ask you one question, and in reply I expect 1 answer. 1) "If the Northern Irish have chosen Britain to remain as their Soveriegn, and have as much right to Ireland as the non indigenous Latin Americans do to South America, what possible problem can there be with the Northern Irish retaining Britain as their Sovereign???".
Gabriel Marchevsky	posted 5/18/04 6:12 PM     No right at all. Let's assume that a group of Argentinians living in Uruguay decide that they want to be ruled by Argentina. Does Argentina have the right to annex a piece of Uruguay? Is this democracy? Give me a break!How about the Irish living in England?If they unite in a particular region and decide to be ruled by Ireland, would you support that? Would you allow England to be splitted and ruled by another country?
The_Great_Democracy	posted 5/18/04 6:39 PM     Good point but it still happends, and is merely democracy...whether i would like my country to be divided is irrespective of legal proceedings. Do you believe in South America's right to choose their independence from Spain and Portugal? If so then you must surely conclude Peru's right to choose Spanish Soveriengty, which was denied them by both San Martin and Bolivar. Maybe it is not that you dont wish to see Northern Ireland Return to Southern Ireland, you merely wish for Northern Ireland to choose independence from Britain...something that will never happen
Gabriel Marchevsky	posted 5/18/04 7:00 PM     Ireland should not be divided. Nothing good comes from dividing people. Gabriel
The_Great_Democracy	posted 5/18/04 7:33 PM     Well then what do you want to happen? I will write a letter to Tony Blair Demanding that Northern Ireland Reunify against with Republican Ireland, against the wishes of Both the Northern Irish and Republican Irish, if you state that non indigenous South Americans have no rights which are not given to them by the previous settlers of their lands.
Gabriel Marchevsky	posted 5/18/04 9:31 PM     I have a better idea. Why not send the bill for all this mess to those who created it in first place?If not for Spain, England, Portugal and France, the Native Americans and the Irish would live in peace today.Never mind about the "non indigenous South Americans " We will get out of the way. In any case, if you only paid an early interest of 1%, the vast amounts of gold you owe to the Native Americans would probably cover most of the continent and that would not live much room for the rest of us anyway.Please do forward my suggestion to Mr. Blair.Gabriel
The_Great_Democracy	posted 5/21/04 10:39 AM     What are you talking about? Am i Portuguese or Spanish?...no, i am British...Britain did not steal gold from any native peoples...in reality British settlement was of agriculture, producing sugar and tobacco...and this was all private investment, very loosely linked to Government, and the Lands were often bought from Native peoples (not always. Whats more, Britain made laws protecting native americans, they could sue in a British court, and were fully accepted as Brtish citizens with full rights. Anyone harming a native american (or a black slave) during times of british rule in America would recieve as severe punishment for harming any other colonist. I think you have an uncanny ability to talk rubbish...are you preserving your amateur status to talk cr*p in the olympics? Or are you using this message board to boost your profesional career.
Gabriel Marchevsky	posted 5/21/04 12:05 AM     Boy, your brain is squicky clean. I've seen brainwashed people, but you carry the flag. It seems that the best thing that could happen to anyone is to be invaded by England. Severe punishment for harming a slave? Isn't slavery harmful enough for you? Are you a comedian?Do they teach you in school that pirates didn't exist and the Royal Navy used to attack Spanish ships for their firewood? Native American suing in British court? Ghandi was a second class citizen in the 20th century!And how exactly did a Native American get into a British court? Were water taxis around 400 years ago?I can't wait to hear your historical perspective on South Africa. No doubt Nelson Mandela was a condecorated British hero, and you have never seen a South African diamond; you were there to farm...My professional career? Another four years of Bush and I'll be lucky to get a "manufacturing" job frying potatoes.

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