Author	Topic:   does anyone think marv wolfman would have been a better choice for jla/avengers?
Nicholas McDonald	posted 9/30/03 5:52 AM     Personally I must say I do. The man is the best in the industry at comics involving large groups of people and I know he would have Superman beat Thor. However my opinion depends upon the next book which I will skim through before I buy. If Thor wins I will never buy ANY material written by Kurt Busiek again, if Superman wins I'll hunt down Kurt's work and buy them.
Mark Metz	posted 9/30/03 10:28 PM     Personally, I think either one would do fine on the book. Marv is my favorite, but I have a lot of faith in Kurt based on the books he has written. I do think you are getting overly excited by that one panel. I like Superman better than Thor myself, but if they write Thor as more powerful, it doesn't take anything away from Superman in my opinion. And look at it this way, if you've seen the final cover of the mini-series, you already know that at some point Thor will be down and only Superman can save the day.
Sephiroth	posted 10/1/03 1:53 AM     No way! Marv Wolfman is terrible when it comes to writing dialogue. He totally ruined Crisis on Infinite Earths with his cheesy and embarassing dialogue. Just read the issue where Supergirl gets killed. The cliches ridden speeches that Supegirl, Dr Light and Superman makes during that scene makes me cringe with embasrassment everytime I read it.
Sephiroth	posted 10/1/03 1:53 AM     No way! Marv Wolfman is terrible when it comes to writing dialogue. He totally ruined Crisis on Infinite Earths with his cheesy and embarassing dialogue. Just read the issue where Supergirl gets killed. The cliches ridden speeches that Supegirl, Dr Light and Superman makes during that scene makes me cringe with embasrassment everytime I read it.
Nick McD	posted 10/1/03 5:13 AM     If Superman loses in next month's fight I'll stick around 'till the end to see who finally comes out on top,and if Superman doesnt give Thor hell I'll ditch Busiek faster than teenagers are ditching Britney Spears.I consider myself the ultimate superman fan and have taken offense at some of Busiek's snide remarks about Superman being all brawn and no brains and that there was a more passionate fan base demanding Thor beat Superman. Guess what I am Kurt! A Superman fan. Saying there are people out there who want Thor to beat Superman more than I do is pretty far fetched. It irks me when writers make remarks at a whim without thinking of how the fans might react. When I went to my comic store I asked an acquaintance who he thought would win between Superman and Thor. He said Thor. I asked him why and he said that though Superman was faster, stronger, tougher, and in all likelihoods smarter, Thor was magic. It took me less than two minutes to change his mind. The thing is so many people think that a weakness to magic means that Superman can be taken out by a rabbit's foot that they immediately think he'll lose in a clash with a magical foe. He isnt entirely invulnerable to it, but at the same time he isnt weakened by it. Come on people! You could argue that Superman has the same resistance to magic that Thor does. Pre-Crises Superman was HIGHLY resistant to it. In Action Comics #485 the wizard had imprisoned superman in a magical prison but Superman didnt bat an eye. He said," You may be a magic man. But I'm a Superman. No force on Earth can harm me." In Superman #344 Dracula (who was in this book a dark warlord with tremendous magical abilities) attempted to take control of Superman's mind using magic saying,"Gaze into my eyes ... deeply now-- and while you stand there helplessly, I shall draw your life's blood from you -- and you shall become my undead slave! What -- you still move ..?!' And though struggling to resist the mind control Superman did so and created a miniature sun within the palm of his hand and hurled it at Dracula knocking the crap out of him. Just saying Thor is magic thus he will defeat Superman is simply untrue. Both are powerful and both deserve to give as good as they get, I dont want an easy victory for Superman but I dont want him to lose simply because he is my favourite (and my relative Chris McDonald voiced Jor-El on S:tas and Superman on Batman Beyond).I hope I dont sound like I'm ranting.
MarkoRoman	posted 10/1/03 6:27 AM     I'm with you Nick........I think that Supes has a good mind (and super-speed) to get himself away from magic & sneak one swift powerful punch to the Norse God, and lights are out! Hell, Thor was taken out by far-less powerful Adversaries. Even the majority of the Marvel Fans bow their heads and faintly admit that the JLA is overwhelmingly too powerful for the Avengers. I'd bet just Green Lantern & the Martian Manhunter alone can take down the Avengers. Now, about the subject matter if Wolfman would be a better choice.......my answer is possibly. I enjoyed Busiek's story-lines & twists, yet the only thing that bothered me, was that both Writer & Artist were fresh from working in the pages of the Avengers, so I thought there might be a bit of favoritism being played out. I think my Choice for writer would have been Geoff Johns! I love his work on JSA a lot, especially when he is working with a roster of almost 20 characters (including the regular JSA line-up, the Reserves, Freedom Fighters, members of the Seven Soldiers of Victory & other characters associated w/ these Groups). Karl Kesel would be my 2nd favorite Writer to work on such an assignment. He has a very strong knowledge of DC & Marvel (see Unlimited Access). I love how he worked in the story of the Legion of Super-Heroes meeting the Future X-Men (from Uncanny X-Men #142-143) & how Jonah Hex was placed in the future, etc. I was very impressed. I'll place my faith in Mr. Busiek that he will play "fair" w/ DC & give each character their "fair"-due. Just the same as the JSA Chairman's name.......let's "Fair Play".
The Hand	posted 10/1/03 9:50 AM     as far as Wolfman doing the writing...I'd have to say that i think Busiek would be the better man for the job. if you read Avengers Forever, you'll know why. that was an amazingly intricate story that could have easily lost you somewhere in the temporal travels,..but it didn't i displayed Mr. Busiek's ability to handle a complex storyline, which i am safe in saying that this one surely will be....i mean, c'mon, it's the Avengers and the Justice League that has a story (unlike DC v. Marvel) which so far it pretty damn good and boasts to use every member of the 2 teams...if it was co-written by Busiek and Waid, who is a phenomenal writer, that would have been welcome, but o well, Busiek has a good working relationship with Perez and as an artist myself, i can understand what effect that has on the storytelling ability of the book,...Busiek knows Perez's strengths and abilities and I'm confident that those factors helped the process along. So, i say instead of complaining about this or whining about that, just realize that the wheels are in motion,...Kurt Busiek IS the writer, George Perez IS the artist....everyone is putting 100%+ into this ...and it doesn't matter who wins the "bouts" between the teams....the story isn't about JLA v. Avengers....thats a substory, so take it for face value and enjoy the book. I know i will...
Nick McD	posted 10/1/03 5:37 PM     part of what's scared me for some time is that in the midst of the chaos of the cross-over Superman and Thor would be looking like they'ld beat the crap out of each other, fly at each other, and then Superman would say," We dont have to do this. It's better for us to talk this out than for our teams to inflict injuries (if not casualties) upon each other." and then Thor would say,"There is a ring of truth within this,friend. I agree." and they would proceed to (groan) shake hands thus causing fan boys to both sigh with relief and then say "darn it! I wanted them to fight." Thor isnt the Hulk, he's more reasonable (not counting his smart ass attitude in the reigning. When I read that comic I think about how much satisfaction it would give me if Superman flew through the dimensions and beat some sense into Thor). In my opinion the worse choice for this cross-over is dan jurgens. His dialogue is the worst in comics. Remember Hunter/Prey when Superman fought Cyborg.I still shudder at what they said. Superman: I'm tired of you! Punches Cyborg Cyborg: Not as tired as I am of you! Uses heat vision Jurgens has said in a slug fest Superman would lose to Thor. In my opinion he is a traitor who never should get within ten miles of a superman book again/. The man got to kill off, and marry Superman, and for a time get rid off Clark Kent (not to mention changing his cotume). Many superman writers dream of doing this, and Jurgens got to, yet he says he says Thor would beat Superman?! He's the Bruce Jones of Superman. Maybe Marv Wolfman should have gotten this cross-over. He's the best at complex cross-over and gives every body a fair chance. Considering he used to be an editor at Marvel before this I think he'ld give everybody a fair chance, I had to read for twenty pages to catch a glimpse of Superman though he is Marv Wolfan's favourite character. It felt packed and in my opinion the dialogue was great. Dialogue can be corrected, stories are more important. The Crises had a compelling story and the dialogue concerning Superman's fight with the AM was superb. The only other time dialogue has really stuck with me from a comic is Alan Moore's For The Man Who Has Everything (there better be a justice league show on this in the future) and Jeph Loeb's Superman #172. Either Alan Moore should have done the cross-over (he has yet to do one) or Wolfan, Busiek's recent work with the Avengers makes me think he'll be too biased towards his own team to do anything.
Nick McD	posted 10/1/03 5:40 PM     Hey George, before Kurt was considered for writing this cross-over who did you think was the best choice?
MarkoRoman	posted 10/2/03 7:53 AM     er, correction to the Future X-Men issues, being #141 & #142, and not #143............... Nick, I'd thought about Alan Moore as well, but he seems a bit away from the mainstream, lately, yet I'd love to see what creativity he would conjure.............Also, Geoff Johns (my #1 choice) is currently writing Avengers (which I also forgot to mention) & JLA's parent Super-Team, JSA! What better choice than Geoff Johns! Marv Wolfman would be in my Top 10 & Dan Jurgens would certainly not (be in my Top 100).
Sephiroth	posted 10/3/03 2:19 AM     C'mon, we all know by now that Superman will lift Thor's hammer and use it against the main villian in #4. Do you really think Busiek (and Marvel) will allow Superman to do that AND have Thor lose to him in #2? If that happen then that is selling out to DC even though Thor isn't one of Marvel's more popular or iconic characters.
Nick Mcd	posted 10/7/03 11:38 PM     Then by all means Marvel, sellout! D.C. sold out in xmen/teen titans cross-over when Dark Phoenix embarressed Darkseid. That was one of the worst cross-overs ever starring the xmen with the titans thrown in. Claremont never should have written it, he made Star Sapphire's star bolts over power the omega beams of Darkseid. What the heck? THAT is selling out to Marvel. Also look at Darkseid vs Galactus : The Hunger. There Darkseid gets beaten by Galactus and SS almost kills Orion and overpowers the Black Racer who is a power to challenge all power. THAT is selling out. What about GL failing to contain the energies of two universes but the Surfer could? What about Superman getting beaten by Venom? Dont get me started. Sell out Marvel. For once. Superman deserves it.
The Hand	posted 10/8/03 2:13 AM     ok Nick,....i'm gonna try to remain patient, while writing,...First off, Dark Phoenix is one of the greatest forces known in the Marvel universe, of course she'd be able to kick darkseids ass or at VERY least pose a good fight,...your conclusions are unfounded, your just unwilling to accept that Marvel and DC each have powerful and interesting characters.....I am glad that you were no where involved in this series,...because that ego would dissolve any chance for this series coming to fruition....oh and let me clue you in on something, SuperMan is Marketed as an infallible character, the Kryptonite weakness is played out,...thats probably why when they killed him in 93 that it was sheer strength that killed him, and not some trick....this near infallable character is viewed as being able to kick anyones ass,...so whats the allure, whats the catch,....so in order to make the fights he's in and the the stories he's a part of more intense and interesting, he gets his ass kicked....which doesn't damage the character cuz he's as recognizable as mickey mouse n Jesus Christ....and the fact that the fans know SuperMan is strong...so get off your high horse,....i realize this is an open exchang of Ideas but you make me sick Nick McD....everything you comment on is bias on whatever superhero you side with.....one of the kool parts about this series is that there isn't one dominating force... that 2 universes collide n collab...you make me sick...grow up
bravo_charlie	posted 10/8/03 12:31 AM       marv`s fine with me,as well as kurt busiek.but it would have been cooler if they got Alan Moore to write it...
Ultron-5	posted 10/11/03 1:29 PM     Totally. Marv Wolfman OR Alan Moore, Kurt totally sucked. Can't believe it could happen, but it totally wrecked the whole book for me. Still reading it, but totally wrecked 80% of the fun for me. They screwed up big time, or kurt did.
vu	posted 10/11/03 5:32 PM     Although I am a huge Alan Moore fan, I don't really think he should write JLA/Avengers. His ideas and style is very different than what mainstream audience will ready to accept...
Buddydave	posted 10/16/03 5:12 PM     George himself said working with Kurt on JLA/Avengers was like working with Marv Wolfman (the highest compliment he can give, he said). And after reading #1, I'd tend to agree. Wolfman/Perez and Busiek/Perez have been two of my favorite writer/artist parings ever. Perez/Perez isn't too shabby, either.
David Burcham	posted 10/30/03 1:32 PM     Nope.
Jocasta	posted 10/31/03 4:15 PM     Yes, probably. JLA \ AVG turned into such a disapointment, such mindless slugfest for publisher crossover cash in, i'd probably like anyone else doing it. Kurt has written stuff ALOT better than this. I guess the nerd-monkeys who orgasm at how much heroes you can stick into a comic no much how it hinges on a nonsensical low quality plot will be pretty happy though. Not that it takes much, apparently.
KOFS	posted 11/13/03 6:10 AM     Thor losing to Superman is Marvel selling out once again. What is the deal that everyone loves an alian? Thor should have won the fight in a straight out fight as should have Hercules kicked Wonder Woman's butt
MarkoRoman	posted 11/13/03 7:31 AM     It's not that Marvel is selling out, Marvel accepts the Truth that the Man of Steel is more powerful than people think. If he had Batman's way of thinking or even Thor's way of thinking (darker) he would probably be quite deadly. Wonder Woman (I) already kicked the DC's version of Hercules, now seeing as to Wonder Woman II noticed the very Man that, at first, imprisoned her mother (Wonder Woman I) and the rest of the Amazons (before getting defeated by the Amazon Race, who strategically beat Hercules and his Men), out of rage put forward more strength to bring him down before he tries to to be a Threat again. Now it works both ways, ie: How can Iron Man defeat Captain Atom and/or Flash (w/ the help of Mother Box) or Batman not find a way to defeat Captain America (the only dialogue and fight I was not happy with)?!? In the DC Boards, they are making a debate over that (Captain Atom defeat), so I guess it's pretty even (even though I would have favored the JLA to almost and completely overwhelm the Avengers). This is one very fun ride! I'll still stick with my #1 choice for having Geoff Johns write the Series and #2 by Roy Thomas. Karl Kesel is my #3. Others in mind would be Mark Waid, Grant Morrisson, (current writer) Kurt Busiek, Marv Wolfman (yes, he's a good candidate, but not the best), Mike Barr, James Robinson & (maybe) Alan Moore (in a darker and deeper setting).
Edgar	posted 12/3/03 9:10 AM       We all know that Thor is ranked #1 in the Comic universe. He's only second to his father Odin. Superman is no match to the Supergod. Thor has taken on villians that are 10 times bigger and stronger and has triumph. He never gives up when it comes to battle and will fight to the end. Unfortunately, Thor is not an icon in any comic books. And most comic books are not objective.
Buddydave	posted 12/3/03 9:26 PM     "And most comic books are not objective." There's nothing to be objective about -- THEY'RE FICTION. Get over it.
Edgar	posted 12/4/03 1:40 AM       Fiction but not true to the character depicted. If you're like me and you read both Superman and Thor, you'll see just how powerful The God of Thunder is by comparison. But since Superman has more fans, ofcourse there would be more disappointed enthusiast out there if he lose. So tell how objective is that.
vu	posted 12/4/03 3:56 AM     I think we're forgetting that as powerful as Thor and his hammer is, it really doesn't affect Superman (at least not to the full extentt), because Superman is not of Marvel's world. To him, picking up the hammer is no problem, but I've got this feeling that even Plastic Man and lug the hammer around. I can't wait to see what happens in #4.
Amigo72k	posted 12/10/03 5:20 AM       That shouldn't be the case, Superman was in Thor's world. So, by no means should Superman have beaten Thor. I am so sick of DC making Superman out to be the end all be all, if Superman gets mad all the JLA wets their pants. Heck Captain Marvel [Shazam] should be able to clean Superman's clock. Hercules should have given a easy win against WonderWomen, better yet they should have had She Hulk VS Wonder Woman and Hercules VS Aquaman, I could accept WonderWomen winning that battle. If they are going to sell out Thor, than they should have done the honest thing and let Batman fall to Captain American, Cap is the greatest hand to hand fighter, Batman WOULD not defeat him.
David Burcham	posted 12/13/03 7:24 AM     You must remember this...and it is a very important point...it was DC AND Marvel who decided that Superman would be the winner. Let me repeat, DC AND Marvel. Even Stan Lee has said Superman is the most powerful hero ever. Stan is the one who said he purposfully made ALL his characters weaker than Superman so the fans would find them more interesting. Absolutly NO ONE knows more about Thor than Stan Lee.That is who I trust on the final word of the matter.
Amigo72k	posted 12/13/03 3:59 PM     When did Stan say all this, could you tell me where I can look this up at. I can respect that superman was the 1st hero that started the whole genre. However, just think it is a little silly that they would job their [Marvel] heroes out to him, or the fact that an Alien would be more powerful than a God. The fact that Joe is the editor and chief of Marvel doesn't say much, I still think the whole JLA/Avengers was a little too bias in DCs favor.
David burcham	posted 12/14/03 8:11 PM     Stan was on NBC Late Night with Conan O'Brian when the first MARVEL VS DC series was about to be released. He was asked about some of the match-ups. When the topic of "Spiderman vs. Superboy" came up, Conan asked that it didn't seem like much of a contest. Stan then talked about how Superman was able to move planets and travel through time when he (Stan) stared creating the Marvel heroes. At the time, Superman didn't have very much of a personality. Stan said that he gave ALL his heroes weaknesses and flays. he made them all imperfect to add more character. >BR< I never said Thor was NOT the better character...at least not when he was linked with Donald Blake. But just because the hammer is MAGIC doesn't mean Superman cannot fight against it. >BR< And I really don't see where "bias" by Kurt Busiek plays into it. He wrote some of the greatest Avengers stories in YEARS (although the Triune Undestanding payoff was weak). ALSO...I love Marv Wolfman's work. Reading New Teen Titans, Crisis, and Nightforce were what turned me from a casual comic book reader to the full-blown geek that I am. i just feel that Busiek was THE man for JLA/Avengers. >BR< I still don't understand how ther can be a "DC" bias by a man that is primarily recognized as a "Marvel" creator. Helloooo.....does the comic title "Marvels" ring any bells?
Amigo72k	posted 12/15/03 0:55 AM     Just because most of stan's character has weaknesses doesn't mean they are weaker than DC. in the crossover Aquaman said on average the Marvel characters were less powerful. The big DC 3 Superman, Wonderman and Batman didn't lose any of their battles. DC was always ahead in the race for the objects in book 2. The little things add up to alot. Plus Kurt has stated in interviews that DC was more powerful than Marvel. As for Superman, Bryne revamped him, he downgraded his power made him more of a real charater. So he was no longer a mover of planets. Ok, Superman can fight against Thor's hammer but for him to stop the hammer in Thor's own universe, I totally disagree with that. If it was in Superman's world, I could live with it. Since Thor's hammer would be less powerful. What exactly is your point, he wrote a book called Marvels, it was a writing assignment he got paid for. Kurt is still allowed to have opinions and his opinions are quite clearly , that he thinks DC is more powerful.
David Burcham	posted 12/15/03 2:47 AM       It was Stan Lee's opinion, too...don't forget, he created the comic book version of Thor. And what about Iron Man taking out Captain Atom and Green Arrow when Hawkeye JUST HAPPENED to have the right arrow... How about Captain Marvel stealing Green Lantern's power... how about Quicksilver outracing Flash on "Earth Marvel"...how about Scarlet Witch single-handedly taking out the entire League...how about the beautiful characterization of Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and Captain America over the characterization of the DC Heroes...how about Mr. Fantastic being able to make the Batcave's security look like a complete joke at will (not to mention that Reed was on "Earth Marvel" at the time AND he was only in the book as a cameo)...how about the fact that the "Earth DC" Objects of Power were virtual Tinker Toys when compared to the(I mean, c'mon! just one of Cosmic Cube, Ultimate Nullifier, or Infinty Jewels alone are more powerful than ALL the DC objects combined!)...how about the way that the Avengers acted as a TEAM when Thor went down while Aquaman acted alone to come to Superman's aide and how he was LUCKY to be in the Savage Land with a prehistoric monster close at hand...How about Batman admitting Captain America would stomp his butt (he didn't use those exact words but the meaning was there {as if Batman would actually ADMIT an opponent would take him out to his face})...How about ALL of that compaired to "'Earth DC' is a little bit bigger" and "Superman beat Thor." Sounds like the book has been writtten buy a Marvel writer to me! ;)
David Burcham	posted 12/15/03 7:57 AM       Besides...it doesn't matter WHO the writer is. This book is Mr. George's baby! the writer is, ultimatly, just along for the ride. It was George who slaved away at this series the first time around, his DREAM project, only to see it turn to dust. It is George who is now suffering for his art with tendomitis. He damn near crippled himself doing this project. George is doing this project for ALL of us, not just Thor fans. We should damn well grateful to Mr. George for doing it instead of crying about which hero got beat by the other. If that were the case, I would be crying bloody murder over Green Lantern taking out Photon the first time around, but I'm not. This comic book is a celebration of super heroes, it is a celebration of George Perez, and it is a GIFT to comic book fans, just as GMES will be a gift to comic book fans. The bottom line is this: If Kurt Busiek is good enough for Mr. George, then he is good enough for me and he should DAMN well be good enough for those of you who are STILL crying like babies over poor widdle Thor! I am soory for the venom of this post, Vu. if you feel that it is to strong, then please take it off. But I have tried to make the Thor/Superman debat fun and lighthearted, but I finally reached my breaking point and had to get serious with a post. I just got tired of the whining about Thor. I never...EVER...thought i would get mad over a STUPID argument like "which Sooper Heero kin whomp th udder wun, duhhhhh." But, to paraphrase a famous sailor, I stood all i coulds stand til i can't stands no more! While they have a right to their opinion, i feel I have a right to express mine too. If they want to get MAD over a COMIC BOOK, well....you know.
David Burcham	posted 12/15/03 8:03 AM       Please excuse all the horrendous spelling, Vu! Just because my existence doesn't hinge on which super-hero can beat up the other doesn't mean I'm not passionate about JLAvengers...or Mr. George! Bye the bye, if Mr. Marv is reading this, i cannot WAIT until GAMES is realeased!
Amigo72k	posted 12/16/03 1:36 AM     David, let get one thing straight, this was my opinion. I suggest you not make this into a personel matter. I don't lie awake at night dreaming about who can take who. I posted this for fun. I am glad for this crossover, yes I am, I am glad for what Perez has done , yes I am. I have been curious to you throughout this whole thing. If you choose to get upset over a meaningless thing like this I truly pity you. Vu it is people like this what spoil everything , by acting like complete fools.
Amigo72k	posted 12/16/03 1:39 AM     Please excuse all the horrendous spelling, Vu! Just because my existence doesn't rely on babysetting babies losing their tempers on the net.
David Burcham	posted 12/16/03 7:26 AM       Point taken. However, I did not get angry until all the posts that appear (note the word "appear") by many people just seem (note the word "seem")to keep on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how great a crime it was that Thor was defeated by Superman. I apologize for taking the apparantly (note the word "apparantly") non-stop complaining on the subject the wrong way. You have your opinion and I have mine (and you know what they say about opinions and armpits, everybody has one and they ALL stink, meaning no one opinion is better than the other). It just seemed to me that a majority ( note that I did not say "all") of the "DC bias" conspiracy theroists acted (notice the word "acted") as if the ENTIRE series was worthless and rendered all for naught due to one super-hero battle. And believe you me...the LAST thing I have done is lost sleep over ANYTHING that has ever been said ANYWHERE on the internet!
adam copeland	posted 12/16/03 8:15 PM     the question is 'would marv wolfman be the better choice as writer.' i love marv wolfman's work, but you have to think about it. when marv wolfman left marvel for dc it was not on the best of terms to say the least. and do not forget about the dispute over the character blade. there would be far more chance of 'dc bias' if wolman were writing the book than busiek could ever dream of. i happen to agree with burcham about all the crying. by looking at the prvious posts by the pro-thor group, you sure don't resd like you are posting for fun. the way the posts are written, you act like you are mad at the entire world because thor lost to superman. 'i am sick and tired...' are not words that suggest 'fun.' amigo, by your continual references to 'jobbed out' suggest you are a wrestling fan. well, i am a 'mark' for thor and i wish he would have won but i am not going to cry over spilled milk. the rest of the story and art is just too good for me to complain all the time about a single battle. and david, you are wrong about superman moving planets. according to the way grant morrison wrote him, who several people on this thread say can do a better job than busiek, he can only move THE MOON!!! can thor move the moon? and before anybody throws up the "it was the electric superman' arguement, morrison already had the scene written before he knew about the change to 'superman blue.'
Amigo72k	posted 12/16/03 10:12 PM     You may suggested all you like. If you want to take it as being mad at the world knock yourself out. It was a friendly debate as far as I am concerned. I am really not a Thor fan, I am more of a Captain Marvel [Shazam]& Captain America fan. And believe it or not,I really do like DC. I just stated my opinion on the books. Now will I collect the 4th one, yes I will. I am still very much a George Perez fan, and to me that what makes these books worth the money. Jobbed = Wrestling fan, interesting thought.
David Burcham	posted 12/18/03 1:55 AM       I have thought about it a few days...man was I a jacka$%! I have now turned that corner I have always dreaded...I am now a character from THREE GEEKS or THE ELTINGVILLE CLUB. I apologize directly to you, Amigo27. I have alwys tried to be the foil of people who take their funnybooks WAAAAYYY to seriously, and now, I have become them! (Woe and lamentations upon me and my house!) Will you accept my most humble (and, frankly, humiliated) apology? Even if I still feel Thor would NEVERNOWAYNOHOWBUDDY beat Supes? I never really paid attention to the "jobbed out" references! "Adam Copeland," you wouldn't happen to be a certain, long-haired, recovering from an injury, Canadian, WWE worker famous for ladder matches and having lotsa big, 'ol white teeth, would you?
Bill Mallett	posted 12/24/03 8:37 AM       Just wanted to put my two cents in on the Thor-Superman discussion. I'm currently living in Thailand and haven't actually seen any of the books yet, but I love trying to keep up with things on this sight. One of the interesting changes in recent cross-over history is that a definitive winner has been declared. In the past, writers and companies would almost always end the fight before one or the other hero won, Leaving the debate to linger among fandom. Usually the two heroes/teams would stop fighting in the middle of the battle and realize they were on the same team. Then they would join forces to stop the bad guy. While this was entertaining, it quickly becomes rote and I for one began to look at these encounters as a bit of a joke. I'm glad Marvel and DC have chosen to declare a winner in these battles. It makes for a more interesting story. Please keep in mind, it's just a battle. The next time the same characters meet, the outcome could be completely different. There have been many times that your favorite hero has been beaten by his arch foe in a battle, but that doesn't define the character. What defines the character is his ability to come back from adversity and triumph in the end. My bet is that all the characters protrade here will be an important part of the ultimate victory regardless of how their individual battles turned out. I think it's great to express our opinions and even suggest how or why we feel on character could defeat another, but comments about making future purchasing decisions based on the outcome of a single battle "I'll never buy another Busiek book if Superman beats Thor" concerns me. If Marvel and DC believe that people will become that offended by the outcome of a single battle, they'll go back to the standard two super-heroes meet, have a misunderstanding and begin fighting, clear up the misunderstanding while they're beating the snot out of each other, stop fighting and join forces. I, for one, prefer letting these battles go to a logical conclusion that moves the story forward and encouraging authors to break new ground. One of the greatest stories I've ever read as a comic collector was "Kraven's Last Hunt". Imagine if I fandom had assumed the story was over when Kraven initially defeated Spider-Man. No single battle (even those ending in death) should ever be considered the end when reading in the comic zone. Cheers
shady	posted 3/1/04 8:28 PM       cant believe i waited all this time just to see thor get beat by superman, personally i think they should quit doing company crossovers for the simple fact that dc will never let anybody from another company beat their precious commodity. everybody knows thor is far stronger then superman, and yet he wasnt even allowed to go more then half a page before getting knocked out.and whats all this about dc characters being stronger then marvel,is that a joke.
Luis	posted 5/14/04 7:27 PM       Thor and Superman should have been an even match. Though Superman is faster, he certainly is not stronger than Thor. They are about even in all areas but knowledge. Thor ben around for thousands of years. Thor should have been able to "power up" and send Superman home to his mother.

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