Author	Topic:   AR
Kim	posted 9/28/02 0:40 AM     Should animals have rights and if so, which rights? For ALL animals or just some?
Dan the man	posted 9/28/02 3:02 AM     Animals don't have rights because they are animals. They run on instinct and can not make decisions on their own. The only animals that might have any rights are endangered. Not manatees because they are not endangered.
Varmit	posted 9/28/02 3:23 AM       Dan, don't tell the boaters the manatee's dont have rights. Just about every water way has very restricted speed limits. Plus the last time I checked it was a $10,000.00 fine and possibly a year in jail for feeding manatee's.
Alexie	posted 9/28/02 5:03 AM       Animals have the *right* to be treated as humanley as possible right up until they are slaughtered. In other words, I don't believe in AR. Im all for AW though.
Laura	posted 10/1/02 6:58 PM     If there were a being higher on the food chain than humans, do you think it would be fair for them to dip us in a pool of electrically charged water not necessarily stuning us and then sliting our throats open and hanging us upside down so we could watch our blood drip to the floor? I don't think it would be. We have feelings, so do animals.
Equinely Yours	posted 10/1/02 7:04 PM     Laura ~ Can you think for yourself or do you always quote from PeTA Propaganda?
Kim	posted 10/1/02 7:53 PM     Laura, What fairy tale book are you reading from. If there were a higher being aside from us, you can bet it WONT be a cow
O. T.	posted 10/1/02 7:55 PM     If there was a being higher than us that ate us, we would have to deal with it. Lucky for us, we are at the top of the food chain, and to eat meat is the natural thing to do. Don't give me the regular nonsense about not having teeth to rip flesh off an animals carcass to eat it. God gave us the brains to cook it and to invent the knife and fork.
Varmit	posted 10/2/02 1:21 AM     There are animals that do end up eating humans every year. And like O.T. said, if the dino's were to come back to earth we would just have to learn to deal with it.
DavidCarroll	posted 10/2/02 1:42 AM       Rights are not innate, they are granted as an agreement within a group about how they should treat others and how they should in turn be treated. Animals, therefore, have no rights. We could, if we wished, grant animals rights but that would be foolish as there's nothing in it for us from the other side of the table. You can't even get a tiger to understand the concept of rights, much less get him to agree to uphold them so it would be a one-way street. Since reasonable protection of animals can be addressed by the established legal system, there can be only one reason someone would wish to give them rights and that is to deprive people of their rights to live a natural existence as established under our constitution. The entire animal rights movement is based on a logical fallacy invented by people who so despise their fellow humans that they wish to place animals, not on an equal standing, which is impossible, but on a superior standing, which is ludricous and self-loathing.
DavidCarroll	posted 10/2/02 2:06 AM       Laura, you said, >>"If there were a being higher on the food chain than humans, do you think it would be fair for them to dip us in a pool of electrically charged water not necessarily stuning us and then sliting our throats open and hanging us upside down so we could watch our blood drip to the floor? I don't think it would be. We have feelings, so do animals. "<< I'll let others speak to you about your misconception about slaughter, what I want to address is your question about whether or not it would be fair. One common stumbling block on the path from adolescence is the concept of fairness. What you have to understand is that life is not fair, nor is the universe, nor even God if that personage exists. So, no, it wouldn't be "fair" if aliens from outer space came along and started wolfing us down, but it would be reality and we would have to deal with it. On the bright side, though, if we could communicate with them, we could try to persuade them to grant us equal rights because, unlike animals, we understand the concept. Whether or not they would agree would, of course, be entirely up to them.
DavidCarroll	posted 10/2/02 2:06 AM       Laura, you said, >>"If there were a being higher on the food chain than humans, do you think it would be fair for them to dip us in a pool of electrically charged water not necessarily stuning us and then sliting our throats open and hanging us upside down so we could watch our blood drip to the floor? I don't think it would be. We have feelings, so do animals. "<< I'll let others speak to you about your misconception about slaughter, what I want to address is your question about whether or not it would be fair. One common stumbling block on the path from adolescence is the concept of fairness. What you have to understand is that life is not fair, nor is the universe, nor even God if that personage exists. So, no, it wouldn't be "fair" if aliens from outer space came along and started wolfing us down, but it would be reality and we would have to deal with it. On the bright side, though, if we could communicate with them, we could try to persuade them to grant us equal rights because, unlike animals, we understand the concept. Whether or not they would agree would, of course, be entirely up to them.
Laura Kruming	posted 10/2/02 4:55 AM     first of all where am i quoting from peta? How do you know where i get my information. I did an extensive research project on vegetarianism, from several sources, not all one-sided. second of all- David, are you just saying that i should deal with things i don't disagree with, suffer through it, and not try to change them. Isn't that what we're all at this forum for?! You want me to think differently about my beliefs, And vice versa. I don't know about you but i try and make life as good as possible, for myself and others, human or otherwise, not just "deal with it". Third of all, do you only do things when there is somthing in it for you? It seems like you are a pretty selfish person. Honestly-do you have many friends? Last and certaitly not least, OT- what in gods name are you trying to prove by saying "there are animals that eat humans every year" There are very few attacks, and its usually because humans are threatening them in some way. Come on. At least David is thinking somewhat rationally, you're just saying stuff that proves NOTHING.
Alexie	posted 10/2/02 5:30 AM       Laura, Do you believe humans are animals?
O. T.	posted 10/2/02 5:31 AM     I don't think I said that. Can you get somebody to read it for you maybe. Try again.
vulpes	posted 10/2/02 5:39 AM     What is wrong with animal welfare,as oppossed to animal rights? If the animals are treated right and killed quickly,so what? Humans kill animals much more nicely that alot of wild predators do.Animals die all the time,many from predation,its natural.I suppose we are unnatural? And if you get into the trapping debate,yes animals are held restrained and some animal welfarests don't like this,but in reality,many furbearers don't make it to the next year anyway,and the way they die naturally is usually quite worst than a night in a trap and a bullet in the head.Mange takes months to kill,for instance.Starvation is terrible too,we all know that. Diseases that cause high fevers cause suffering far worst than a trap.I had a 103 fever a few weeks ago and thought I was going to die,the fever went on for quite a while before it broke.I was vomiting and had the runs really bad too. I would have rather had a steel trap on my hand the whole time than what I had.
Varmit	posted 10/2/02 2:22 PM     Laura, Have you checked with the military during WW2 on how many American soldiers were killed and eaten by sharks after their ships sank? Have you checked along the Nile river on how many people have been eaten by croc's? Have you checked with countries from all over this planet that we do not get any news from about animals killing people? News from our world, does not cover every single space on this planet.
Kim	posted 10/2/02 3:26 PM     "Third of all, do you only do things when there is somthing in it for you?" ******************************* This is the one of the basis for rights...."reciprocation"
DavidCarroll	posted 10/2/02 5:59 PM       Laura replied, >>"first of all where am i quoting from peta? How do you know where i get my information. I did an extensive research project on vegetarianism, from several sources, not all one-sided."<< The following assertions made by you suggest that your sources are entirely from animal rights propaganda. >>"If there were a being higher on the food chain than humans, do you think it would be fair for them to dip us in a pool of electrically charged water not necessarily stuning us and then sliting our throats open and hanging us upside down so we could watch our blood drip to the floor? I don't think it would be. We have feelings, so do animals. "<< If you had done any research, you would know that your depiction of slaughterhouse practice is skewed, to say the least. And your comment about animals having "feelings" is anthropomorphic in the extreme and demonstrates an absence of scientific training or investigation. Furthermore, your emotional prose style indicates that your objections are aesthetics-based and therefore you are only interested in hearing what you want to believe, rather than truth. >>"second of all- David, are you just saying that i should deal with things i don't disagree with, suffer through it, and not try to change them. Isn't that what we're all at this forum for?! You want me to think differently about my beliefs, And vice versa. I don't know about you but i try and make life as good as possible, for myself and others, human or otherwise, not just "deal with it"<< You have completely misunderstood everything I said. Reread the post and think a little harder about it's content. >>"Third of all, do you only do things when there is somthing in it for you? "<< Everyone's first interest is self-interest. That aside, altruism is admirable but misplaced altruism is lethal. If you would screw yourself or your fellow human to elevate another species, your altruism is of the second kind. >>"Last and certaitly not least, OT- what in gods name are you trying to prove by saying "there are animals that eat humans every year" There are very few attacks, and its usually because humans are threatening them in some way."<< Thousands of people worldwide are killed every year by animals, many are devoured, and they may or may not have been provoked by the victim. Did the child stung to death by yellow jackets because he unwittingly trod too close to their nest really threaten them? Was the camper mauled by the grizzly bear as he slept truly represent a threat to the animal? If you were really as intelligent, worldly, and educated as you think you are, you would check the facts rather than invent them. Last, but not least, I can't help but notice your evasion of the welfare vs rights argument. Can you come up with a rationale that is not belief-based? In other words, can you present a valid and true deductive argument supporting your "theory" of animal rights?
Gene	posted 10/2/02 9:43 PM     Laura, I want to commend you for participating on a forum where you're obviously outnumbered, all by people claiming to be more experienced and wiser. It shows a lot of character. Some people on this forum are more conservative than others. I'm a liberal Democrat myself and a vegetarian for 32 years. But I know a lot of wonderful people who farm, ranch, and even rodeo. I'm always inspired by their caring and understanding for animals and what they will do to insure the humane treatment of animals. Instead of just talking the talk, they walk the walk. There are folks on this forum who have been shaped by daily interaction with animals from very early childhood. I don't know a single one of them who would tolerate animal abuse for a second. I'm not a farmer or rancher myself but I know many, and I know that PETA has been telling horrible, savage lies about agricultural people. We aren't asking for your money or membership in any club. Most of all, we don't want you to hate anyone. We just want you to keep an open mind and realize that PETA may not be looking out for your best interests. The world is not the horrible place PETA claims and people are not all monsters. Please don't be so eager to belie [This message has been edited on 10/03/2002]
Gene	posted 10/2/02 10:16 PM     Why did my message print so vertically, and what happened to my last sentence? Just wonderin [This message has been edited on 10/03/2002]
Laura	posted 10/3/02 2:15 AM     I understand what you are saying about peta, gene. And im sorry if you people think im ignorant. I don't think im too good at the debating thing so im gonna stop coming here. And OT im sorry i used your name, i meant varmit. I leave you guys with this: im not going to stop eating meat, if slaughter houses were the best places on earth i wouldn't, because i feel killing animals is wrong. And im sure im not going to change your opinion. I just wanted to make you think a little defferently. I don't think i will because i am so outnumbered; you have a lot of support here, i don't. So reply to my message however you like, i won't see it, and your opinions don't really matter to me anymore.
Gene	posted 10/3/02 2:41 AM     Ciao, Laura. I don't think you're ignorant at all. I think you're inquisitive and open-minded. I don't buy the killing of animals either, but accept it as a fact of life. Change takes time and positive participation. Best of l [This message has been edited on 10/03/2002]
Matthew	posted 10/3/02 3:45 AM       Animal rights - human rights, what's the difference? Who are we to say who has rights or not? No one has a right to kill any innocent living thing. We as humans have this power trip that makes us feel that we can dictate the out come of life. http://www.scan2005.com Animal Rights
Matthew	posted 10/3/02 3:46 AM       Animal rights - human rights, what's the difference? Who are we to say who has rights or not? No one has a right to kill any innocent living thing. We as humans have this power trip that makes us feel that we can dictate the out come of life. http://www.scan2005.com Animal Rights
Gene	posted 10/3/02 4:28 AM     Matthew, making decisions to kill things is human. Thinking about it and questioning it is human, too. Have you never killed anything? [This message has been edited on 10/03/2002]
O. T.	posted 10/3/02 4:32 AM     Well, Matthew, I checked it out. It kinda had my attention there for a minute, and I have to admit,the dog slaughter house was not a pretty sight. About that time, I read the part about them hanging the dog, then loosening the noose, then tightening it back and on and on just to "prolong the agony?" That was as far as I got, and I won't be able to believe another word. Does anybody really think a guy has time to mess around like that, just to get sick kicks? Come on now. After a story like that, I realized it just might be another S.C.A.M.
Gene	posted 10/3/02 4:37 AM     O.T.'s right, Matthew. Where do you get off getting sick thrills on blood and gore and pushing the responsibility onto others? I don't intend to gang up on anyone here, but get real and grow up. [This message has been edited on 10/03/2002]
Gene	posted 10/3/02 4:50 AM     Matthew, did you ever consider that PeTA is posting this crap because they resent people donating money to humane societies rather than to them? Do you have any critical facilities at all? This is the biggest pile of crap in the world! Please, bring me something intellegent and adult! Where's Laura? Meanwhile, I'm not telling you to disappear - just get s [This message has been edited on 10/03/2002]
Gene	posted 10/3/02 4:51 AM     Web people, why are my posts all screwed up? [This message has been edited on 10/03/2002]
O. T.	posted 10/3/02 5:56 AM     Gene,after you go to "post reply", click on "file"at the top, then click on "page setup" and check to see what your margins are set at.If they are more than 0.75", try setting them back to 0.75". This doesn't explain droping the last sentence, but it's a place to start, maybe.
O. T.	posted 10/3/02 4:02 PM     They claim to have personally seen the dog slaughter in China, then ask people to write the Korean Embassy. About Chinese dog killers? I would have thought you would write the Chinese Embassy. I am a Christian myself, and if I ever was to get on the soapbox and go to thumpin the Bible, you can bet I'm gonna be on the up and up all the way. As a teenager would say, grrrrross!!!Not impressed. There are some sick things happening these days. As for the dogs dieing while tied up in the yard, of course that is a large problem. Unfortunatly, that happen all too often. Dogs tied up with no shelter in the hot sun or freezing cold is hard to take. I only wish there was one org. that spent more time working towards solveing problems that are closer to home and knock off the showboating.
Matthew	posted 10/3/02 8:36 PM       OT and Gene, sick thrills? Please, do you understand what eduacation is? Have you even seen those pics in high school of what the huma lungs looked like after smokeing? I am doing the same thing. If it were a S.C.A.M. as you put it, (real Christian of you as well) we would be continually asking for money. We don't. What have you both done lately to change things? I am a teacher, I educate, I bring up issues that people like you wish to avoid, the truth. http://www.scan2005.com Animal Rights
David	posted 10/3/02 8:49 PM       I agree with Matthew. And actually, dogs and cats are killed for food in both China and Korea. The message is still the same, not who to write to. Sometimes it takes graphic images to get the message across.
Kim	posted 10/3/02 9:40 PM     Mathew said "do you understand what eduacation is" Well I will tell you what it's NOT...its not reading horrific stories that claim to be true, with nothing other than hearsey to back it up. Its not the horrific pictures or video in the Peta Website, that despite, what has been displayed, has either proven an *exception* and not the ordinary It has also been proven that certain pics and other *shocking* things, have been staged. Hell Peta just put out a plea for all its members to go and make videos that depict animal cruelty...imagine what one could capture on video that might be an accident or even staged, just to get sympathy for Peta. For Peta, its NOT for the animals it's for their pocket books... there are sound documents that show just how much money has been donated for legal defense of ALF and other members. If Peta made 15 million last year, I would think they'd have at least several major NO kill shelters set up. Instead they *euthanized* animals at their Aspen Hills Sanctuary... guess Sanctuary, means no kill only if you're human and only ifs a true sanctuary and not a PUPPET one, like the Aspen Hills one... Peta does more to hurt animals, and they do it very insidiously...
Varmit	posted 10/3/02 9:54 PM     To David and Mattew, I have yet to figure why people think they have the "right" to change people's cultures. What goes on in China, as long as they are not planning to invade our country, is really no business of ours. There are many things in this world I could do without, but stepping on peoples "culture beliefs" and "religious beliefs" is something I would never do.
Matthew	posted 10/3/02 10:14 PM     In 1941 Germany killed millions of jews, to them this was their culture. Was it wrong for the jews to be liberated? Were not telling people how to live. Kim, you can say what you wish and believe it or not, I agree with you on some things concerning Peta. The pics I have displayed were documented and I did see these acts for my self when I was doing missionary work in China. Are you saying that animals that are in the circus are treated in a humane manner? Dogs that are beaten in China feel no pain? When cows are sent to the slaughter they don't feel the pain of having their throat slit? Education is teaching. I didn't ask you to go to our web site. And you were pre-warned that their are garphic images. I appreciate your comments but make them more creditable.
Matthew	posted 10/3/02 10:18 PM       One more food for thought. Have you all seen those TRUTH adds against smokeing. If you haven't, they show the different effects on those who smoke. ( in the negative) It's not all that plesant but isn't that education? What is the difference in my displays of graphic animal abuse and an anti-smokeing add? Were teaching people the truth.
O. T.	posted 10/3/02 10:31 PM     Matthew and David, you two seem like OK guys and maybe you are sincere in your desire to educate. So let's discuss education a little. I come from a rural/rodeo background.I don't claim to know it all, but I can tell you that so much of what is spewed by ARAs in the name of "education" is out and out lies. One thing that I know very little about is hog farming. I do, however, know that the "education" that is given out by ARAs is that a sow spends her entire productive life in a crate where she can't even turn around. FALSE The truth is, they are put in a farrowing pen somewhere around 2 to 4 hours before they farrow. The bottom slats are raised high enough so the babies can get out of her way when she lays down, and they don't get squashed. Once they are old enough they are moved out of there back to a regular pen. Untruths are so easily detected. Check it out for yourself. I hate to even get started on the untruths that are told about rodeo in the name of "education" but I assure you I could go on for quite some time. By the way, I also had a dog that I named Lucky. She was a stray that I got from the pound. I've gotten several dogs from the pound over the years.Matter of fact, I've got 2 at this time. I know of several guys that do that, but we only do it because we feel good doing it. None of us ever called ourselves "Angels" on some website because of it. It just makes a guy feel right in his own mind, which is good enough for me. If you guys ever want to discuss rodeo, and throw the "educational" books out the window so you can truly learn, then just let me know.
Matthew	posted 10/3/02 10:33 PM       Gene, I read most of everything that you placed on the forum. You had credability with me until you said for me to "grow up". Grow up how? I express my beliefs and becasue you disagree with them that is a reason for me to "grow up". If you want to discuss something with me I am open and willing, if you insult and want to argue, I have better things to do.....
Matthew	posted 10/3/02 10:41 PM       O.T. I have never discussed the rodeo because honestly I don't know enough about it to amke a comment. We can discuss it though. Just email me. This website is actually more of a nagging session then a debate sesion. As for the "angels" on the web site. What's your point? Again, it seems arguemenative.
O. T.	posted 10/3/02 10:42 PM     Yes, Matthew, we've seen the ads about smoking and it's harmful effects. We may be smarter than you think. Why would we be against being educated about the dangers of smoking? You see, there's a difference between education and "education" if you get my drift.
O. T.	posted 10/3/02 10:49 PM     Matthew, I don't think that was argumentive at all. Simply pointing out that what may seem Angelic to some, is just routine for others, and yet we are chastised because of our way of life.
Varmit	posted 10/4/02 0:13 AM     Matthew, I am talking about the treatment of animals when I speak of culture and religious beliefs.
Gene	posted 10/4/02 0:25 AM     Matthew, I just got home and checked the site and saw your messages. I'll give the site you posted last night a second look. I may have flown off the handle because I get so sick of dealing with the blood & gore lust of so many PeTAphiles that it makes me bonkers. I'm going to to dinner and will check the site when I get home. If I owe you an apology, you'll get one. My dinner tonight, by the way, will be vegetarian but loaded with highfat cheese. My wife will tear into a huge hunk of meat, which will gross me out completely. That's 60% of what marriage i
Kelli	posted 10/4/02 1:14 AM     Animals, I believe, have rights. We are torturing them, putting them through extreme amounts of pain, and there is no excuse for that. I get "God put animals on the earth for us to eat." Is that so? Just like God put women on the earth to serve men and blacks on the earth to serve whites? Think about it.
Kim	posted 10/4/02 3:03 AM     Mathew "What is the difference in my displays of graphic animal abuse and an anti-smokeing add? Were teaching people the truth. " One is based in science, the other, fiction, I will let you figure out which is which Here is an excerpt from a PRACTICING and ethical researcher...NOT you, NOT me Why would you believe a video, as opposed to someone who actively does what others only claim to know about? My common sense tells me, if they have little to gain by telling the truth(unlike Peta) then I will lean toward experience. "pigs and sheep can be killed by captive bolt which, like in cattle and horses, results in almost instantaneous unconsciousness because of brain damage. Pigs can also be stunned, that is, rendered unconscious, by an electric shock - again, quick and safe; death occurs because the animal is then bled. Sure, not a pretty picture, but the animals do not suffer. Note also on Temple Grandin's site her recommendations about handling of livestock prior to slaughter so as to reduce stress. Note also that all her recommendations and assertions are backed up by scientific studies that anyone can go and check for the facts. Which is more than you and I, probably did. Here is some more:talking about captive bolts "it is a device to kill large livestock like horses, and cows (in abattoirs). It is a metal bolt driven into the brain which causes almost immediate destruction of the brain, and rendering the animal unconscious. You were pontificating about its use without knowing what you were talking about, check your post. As for not having visited a PMU farm, if you want to rail against them, sure, you don't have to visit them. But you could try and find out what is really happening there before opening your mouth. As Leona can tell you, and as a recent study confirms, welfare of the mares is not compromised by being kept in stalls. As for foals being sold for meat, this is not an issue unless the welfare of the foals is compromised, which is the same as with all animals going for slaughter. And another thing..never mind your precious video... just because it happens at that slaughter house (and which should be reported if true because they are breaking regulations) may not be taken to mean that this happens everywhere. A very elementary point often overlooked. Called reasoning from the particular to the general and faulty logic.
Gene	posted 10/4/02 3:41 AM     Matthew, perhaps my saying "Grow Up!" was harsh, so I'll apologize for that. I guess what I meant was, please get a more realistic perspective. Why are you so desperately eager to believe that your fellow human beings are cruel monsters? Why is your world such an unbearable, bloody nightmare of gushing blood and menacing bunghooks? Granted, there is much cruelty in life and many jerks in the world. But mostly, the facts of nature are very, very rough. Throughout history, about 99% of the world has eaten and worn animals and, as you can see in your research on Asia, America and England are about as kind as it gets for the animal kingdom. You have committed yourself to an extremely radical, new point-of-view that pits you against nearly all of the rest of mankind and its history. Be patient and kind; positive change takes time. You're talking like a brand new born-again who immediately condemns the rest of mankind to burn in hell for all eternity. Only he will be saved. Have more humility, please, and more compassion for your fellow man. Most of what I read in PETA literature contradicts every actual life experience I've had. I think they tell flat-out lies because they want you to believe the world is a nightmare and only they are the solution. Your fellow human beings are not blind to the suffering of animals. I get especially frustrated with PETA's morbid fascination with blood and gore. After a while, it becomes obvious that, rather than horrifying them, it actually turns them on! This is where I loose it with PETAphiles. They get turned on by bloody fantasies, then shift the blame onto someone else, like a farmer or rancher, who is deeply committed to the humane treatment of animals. I think it was you who asked, what have any of you (us) done for animals? While you've been stewing over life's unfairness, many people on this board were feeding and caring for large animals. Not just fattening them for eventual slaughter, but working hours with horses, caring for them, communicating with them, mak
Gene	posted 10/4/02 3:46 AM     Above, I finished with ...making the animal lives better. I always wanted to be tall and thin, but this isn't what I had in mind. I don't know what the problem is with my margins. Sorry for hogging so much space. No adjustment on my end works.
Gene	posted 10/4/02 4:18 AM     Matthew, what type of missionary work did you do in China? When were you over there? I have two very close American friends who have spent a lot of time in China, plus many Chinese friends, mostly from mainland China. I also know quite a few Tibetans, including Tantric monks. Except for the Americans, all these people are dumbfounded by the way Americans indulge animals. They just don't get it. Yeah, they eat everything that walks, crawls, fies, and slithers. Everything. Rats, dogs, cats, everything. But do you think you're going to change their thousands of years practices with a few protest letters? To get a taste of what response you'll get, I suggest you and some of your PETA and SCAN friends visit an American Indian Reservation. Go on their turf with protest signs and leaflets and start telling them their treatment of animals is wrong. See how far you get.
O. T.	posted 10/4/02 4:44 AM     Gene, my wife is wondering if you have a phone number for tech support from the maker of your computer. When we run into a problem she calls the toll free number and they walk her through it.

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