Author	Topic:   AR2
Equinely Yours	posted 10/4/02 3:13 PM     Matthew said: "In 1941 Germany killed millions of jews, to them this was their culture. Was it wrong for the jews to be liberated?" ------------ Killing Jews was NOT the culture of the German people. It was the idea of one maniacal dictator (Hitler), who brainwashed the population with his propaganda. Then WE, the United STates, had to go in and take care of the problem. France, Great Britain, et al, were not able to stop him - Hitler. It was also NOT the culture of French, Dutch, Polish, etc., people to kill Jews. If Hitler was killed, or died by other means, early in the war, the Jews would not have died. A comparatively few number may have just because the Jews have always been a target for some reason. But they would not have been rounded up, by the millions, into concentration camps and sent into gas chambers. And, yes, PeTA does want to dictate to us what we can eat, the use/non-use of our animals, and the clothes we wear. Personally, I live in the Land of the Free. I will eat meat (even if it is dog), I will use my animals, and I will wear and use leather. My animals are healthy & happy & enjoy the activities we participate in. We are a team.
DavidCarroll	posted 10/4/02 3:34 PM       Laura whined, >>"So reply to my message however you like, i won't see it, and your opinions don't really matter to me anymore."<< Boy, if I had a dollar for every time an ara took his ball and went home...
DavidCarroll	posted 10/4/02 3:42 PM       aras like Matthew love to throw out animal welfare issues as a reason to support animal rights when all these issues call for is the support for animal welfare laws. As for using examples from foreign countries where we have no say at all, tsk, shame on you. If you believe that animals should have rights, then present your argument for that and leave welfare questions out of it. I seriously doubt there is even one poster or lurker on this board who doesn't think animals should be treated humanely so let's address the issue and leave the red herrings out of the argument.
Gene	posted 10/4/02 4:12 PM     Equine Girl, I just want to compliment your great post about Hitler. Your posts are great, too, David Carroll. At the same time, I hope PETAkids don't assume the odds are too stacked against them over here. I know how tough it is being a lonely voice on a forum as you get pounded from every direction. It starts tearing at you after awhile until you feel too ragged to return.
O. T.	posted 10/4/02 4:50 PM     Eq. Yours, I admire your wisdom. Speaking of Hitler makes me wonder what today's anti-war protestors would have had to say about that, back then. They're protesting going after Saddam, but who do you think would be the first to cry long and loud if they ever become victims of terriorism. What if Saddam and the boys showed up at an anti-war rally and started blasting away at them? What would they say then? That's an easy one. Kinda reminds me of when the police used tear gas to break up a fight between 2 rival gangs at a ballgame and it drifted into the crowd. Boy, you should have heard the cops catching it from people that were in the midst of it. When backups arrived and the cops got things under control, they found plenty of guns on those gang members. I always wondered what would have been said if the cops would have let it get out of hand and somebody or their child would have been killed? I think we know the answer. Another easy one. Gene, you're right,of course, about the odds here. We do need to remember that. We need to remind ourselves that "animal rights" are not dirty words, it's just that some orgs have brought that reputation on themselves.
Spring Fling	posted 10/4/02 8:53 PM     I just want to thank everyone for having civil discussions. It makes it much nicer and maybe we can all learn acceptance of one another. [This message has been edited on 10/04/2002]
Gene	posted 10/4/02 8:58 PM     FYI: I just logged onto the PeTASUCKS site for the first time and didn't relate to much that I found. Some of it's fun, I'll grant, but pretty mean spirited, too. But considering all the viscious crap decent people have had to endure from PeTA over the years, I don't begrudge them an outlet to express their frustrations. For the record, I'll venture that my contempt for PeTA exceeds anyone's over there. But my gripe is with PeTA rather than the innocent kids they've suckered with their lies and glam. Scanning the forum, I noticed posts from several PeTAkids referring to the Native American's warm & fuzzy, kind, humane treatment of animals. Are you out of your freakin' minds?!!! (Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.) I advise anyone who feels that way tp spend time with actual Native Americans like I do. I'm not judging my Indian friends, just explaining that I'm always appalled by their routine, brutal treatment towards animals. They would never pretend otherwise. I've reported countless stories on other forums about the Rez and won't bother here unless asked. But jeesh, kids growing up with today's media as their main source of information have extremely distorted views of many things. I remember seeing a post on PeTA2 about how Tibetans are vegetarians and treat animals with extreme kindness. Arrrrgggghhhh!!!!!!! I'm pulling my hair out! Please, PeTAkids, do everyone a huge favor and get some actual life experiences. It will save everyone so much grief.
Equinely Yours	posted 10/4/02 8:59 PM     Thanks, OT. I was going to mention similarities between Hitler and Hussein, but didn't want to turn it into a war debate. We're just lucky we're not speaking German or Japanese right now. And if we had left Hussein to his own devices in 1990, he would be controlling the whole Middle East. My husband was in Desert Storm and was just 12km from Baghdad. He's always said that we shoulda took him when we had the chance. He feels like his time there was a waste now. I really do believe that we would have gone on, but PC pressures from other countries won out. I just pray for the strength and wisdom of our military chain of command to take care of the problem once and for all with minimal damage.
Equinely Yours	posted 10/4/02 10:08 PM     Just one last note on the War on Terrorism and/or Iraq and/or other enemies of this country. See the site below for a little reminder. Have your sound on and give it a lot of time to load. It is worth it. The best thing I've seen on the net regarding 9/11/01. http://www.politicsandprotest.org/
AKA Q	posted 10/5/02 2:41 AM     I usually don't post to boards like this because I feel no need to "preach to the choir". But, I feel compelled to express my satisfaction at finding intelligent, articulate people who can still think for themselves. Although I think that we all have very different views on PETA and animal rights/welfare in general, the one thing we have in common is our believe in the right of the individual to lead his own life as he sees fit. I happen to be an avid sport fisher and occasional hunter. I have no interest in rodeos, trapping, etc. But, I do not wish to see these traditions eliminated by narrow-minded bigots who have been brain washed by PETA's propaganda. DavidCarrol: A very eloquent trouncing of the entire "animal rights" position. I have tried to do the same with much less precision and accuracy. Vuples: Interesting and intelligent insight into the *real* world of trapping. O.T. and SP Bulls : Thanks for the real-world perspective on rodeos. Equinely Yours: Excellent rebuke of the inane comparison of human rights to animal rights argument. Based on what I see on this board, PETA and its AR allies don't stand a chance. Reason, logic and individual liberty will prevail.
Gene	posted 10/5/02 6:43 PM     I swear, each time I log onto this forum I get huge, flashing lights proclaiming me a winner, of Hawaiian vacations, time-share condos, huge cash giveaways. This is grrrrrrrr-ate! I must be the lucliest guy in the world!
Gene	posted 10/6/02 5:25 PM     Hey, remember how so many PeTAphiles love bragging about going "undercover"? I bet that's how matthew will describe his missionary work in China. He was "undercover". I guess "undercover" is his missionary position.
O. T.	posted 10/6/02 6:17 PM     Some guys are so easy to read it's almost comical. Let him hang that stuff on the peta2 kids. They'll more than likely fall for it. I also have a problem with him being a teacher. Parents better pay many visits to their kids classroom. Now you know where youngsters with emotional problems come from.
Matthew	posted 10/8/02 1:54 AM     Gene, that was pretty funny, the undercover bit. Actually, your not far from the truth. I was in a way "undercover" because the church I was working with, we broght Bibles over the borders into China from Hong Kong. Sience HK went back to the ownership of China in 1997, the demand for the Bibles has increased. (on another note) I know I get bashed in here allot but in my defence, were not Peta. Believe it or not, Peta ticks me off most of the time and I am so sick of being in their shadow. Please do not associate everyone that is for animal rights or anything in that nature to be with Peta. We can think for ourselves with out the help from them. Good to hear from you Gene :)
Gene	posted 10/8/02 3:42 AM     Matthew, I NEVER confuse people who are dedicated to animal welfare with PeTA, nor vise-versa. Experience and research has convinced me that PeTA is a sinister cult fleecing its well-meaning supporters with fear tactics, lies, and glamor. How any Christian could associate with them baffles me completely. My contempt for PeTA doesn't contaminate my attitude towards any other group, other than their front, the Humane Society of the US. SHARK also has zero credibility with me.
Gene	posted 10/8/02 10:38 PM     In defense of many PeTAboppers, if I was growing up in the claustaphobic, shrink-wrapped, sanitized, affluent white suburbs like 90% of these kids, I'd hate people, too. What unbelievably horrible places they seem, especially when coming from the heart of ranch country. Everyone living in McMansions spaced five feet apart, punctuated only by golf courses, shopping malls, and huge movie complexes playing only "products for the masses"... gawd, my head's spinning from just conjuring the thought. How's any teenager to know anything about the facts of life when raised in places like that? I'm not trying to insult anyone, or their families. I'm just trying to sympathise. As the saying goes, there but for fortune go you and I.....................
Gene	posted 10/9/02 2:58 AM     The concept of animal rights is fascinating, but the more I think about it all I do is spin around in circles, going nowhere. It seems that, whether animals have rights or don't, humans are the ones calling all the shots. If we're equals, why do animals need our permission? If they had equal rights, it would be a free-for-all, just like in the old days, and everything would boil down to the survival of the fittest. I think this battle has been fought and mankind won! ///////////Because humans have developed moralities and have the freedom of choice, many cultures have developed the notion of treating animals in a humane manner. These moralities change from culture to culture, but it appears that American and Northern European animals have it about as good as anywhere else in the world. I think Matthew will vouch for this. (Also, until you've spent time among Native Americans, don't assume their relationship with animals reflects the Disney/Hollywood warm & fuzzy fantasy, and however cool they may be, they're prayers are no better than others', & vise-versa.) //////////////On other forums, I've read ARs arguing that cowboys choose to participate in rodeos but animals don't. My question is, what do animals choose? What druthers do cattle have? It's been my experience that animals live entirely by instinct and do not make moral decisions. As long as they're relatively comfortable, they don't really mind where they are or what they're doing. This is what many creation myths address, including the Garden of Eden's wisdom-choice versus instinctive non-choice. In contemporary terms, God installed additional software into humans; we aren't robots of nature, we have choice, and responsibilities. Meanwhile, have many of you PeTAphiles spent much time with cattle and hogs? Can you please explain their lack of compassion for one another? Aside from the instinctive mother-offspring relationship, cattle and hogs don't hold one another in very high regard. Have you seen hogs eat one another? I have and it happens every day. ///////////// Anyway, I can't resist typing too much and am developing wicked (not Wiccan) tendonitis. So I'll wind up. I had a couple of cool endings but my wrist hurts too much. All I'm really saying is, if we can have the concept of giving animals equal rights, we're BSing ourselves because we're obviously the one's calling the shots. Please, let's all agree to be humane and leave it at that. Meanwhile, let's all pray that PeTA will learn that hati
Gene	posted 10/9/02 3:01 AM     DANG! ...PeTA will learn that hating their fellow human being is a lousy way to live................................
Gene	posted 10/9/02 3:06 AM     Krazy Kay on Emmyloonytoones really hexed me. My posts are stretched like funhouse mirrors and now my wrists are shot! Next to go will be...................................... ........................................ ........................................ ....................................
Gene	posted 10/9/02 7:28 AM     Matthew, I forgot to acknowledege your friendly post. It didn't go unnoticed and WAS appreciated. Believe me. You must realize, though, while your posts were quite intellegent, you blasted everyone with bloody torure porn admidst very questionable claims about being a missionary in China in the late 20th Century. My personal ground rules are, I won't tolerate torture porn from anyone because I'm a PeTA Wars veteran who associates it with truly sick, sick puppies and downright sorry frigs; and I will not allow anyone insulting my intellegence with dumbass, in-my-face, flat-out lies. It's pretty simple, really, and very basic. However, I acknowledge that young rookies may fling that blood and gore crap around the Internet, not realizing what they're doing, plus, I recognize that the possibility exists that one might get involved with smuggling Bibles into southern China from Hong Kong in contemporary times. All I'm saying is, I'll defer dissing you as a lying, insulting, sick freak for the time being. But you better come up with something better than the sorry crap you've been serving up. We're a much more savy crowd than the PeTAbopper
Gene	posted 10/9/02 7:32 AM     yeah yeah yeah, eat my shorts, Krazy Kay!....... than the PeTaboppers you've been hanging with, Matthe
O. T.	posted 10/9/02 10:00 PM     Ditto to that!!! "Torture Porn" is hitting the nail on the head.
Matthew	posted 10/10/02 2:14 AM     Gene- I have nothing to prove to you. Do you understand that? I will do what I know is right, I will fight your kind to the bitter end. I will post pictures of dead animals to prove what is happening. You say my words are crap! You will write out messages that people, like myself get tired or reading. BLA BLA BLA SHUT UP!! Just shut the hell up! I respected your views but the way you come down on people. Your real tough behind a key board! Post a reply to this if you wish but it will fall on deaf ears. I am so sick of you people whineing about Peta. Once again -SHUT UP!! I am totally removing this site from my computer. It gives me a head ache!
The Cold Hard Truth	posted 10/10/02 3:10 AM     As I imagine thinking does too, eh Mathew?
Gene	posted 10/10/02 3:30 AM     Wow, Matthew, I agree I've been on a jabbery posting jag and have been intending to take a break - and give everyone else one. But it's gratifying knowing my messages got under your skin. I don't remember going after anyone but you, but like I said, I won't tolerate torture porn freaks lying to me. Sorry you didn't feel at home at the grown up table. Ciao......
Varmit	posted 10/10/02 3:58 AM     Dang Gene, Your good. You don't even need a hotshot to run them off.
David Carroll	posted 10/16/02 10:45 PM       >>"I am totally removing this site from my computer. It gives me a head ache! "<< Damn, there's another dollar I missed out on! :D
David Carroll	posted 10/16/02 10:58 PM       >>""animal rights" are not dirty words"<< I have to disagree, OT. Animal rights = human wrongs, and that's about a dirty as it gets. When an animal can petition me for rights, I will grant them but, until then, animals can receive all the protection they need through animal welfare legislation. Granting animals rights only opens the door to those looking to subjugate other people to their will.
O. T.	posted 10/17/02 0:40 AM     I suppose what I was trying to say was it should have never gotten to the point where they are dirty words, used the way they are by peta, etc.I'm kinda new at this, and I suppose I don't seperate rights from welfare like it's supposed to be.I always figured my livestock and dogs had a right to be fed and be well cared for and they are depending on me.I don't have a right to neglect or abuse them. I always figured a bucking bull, for example, had a right to buck you off,run over you, hook you around a little, or else just walk out there without firing a lick, in which case the stock contractor who owns him has a right to haul him to the sale barn and he becomes a no buckin Big Mac. I need to study up on the diff between rights and welfare.

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